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    T-90S Bhisma vs Arjun
    Posted by on Sunday, February 07, 2010 (EST)
    The Indian Army plans to pit a few of its Arjun MBTs against T-90S Bhisma tanks in a mock battle in the Rajasthan desert in March - April to help it determine if its should place additional orders for Arjuns.
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    Arjun MBT on the Rajpath on Republic Day, Januar 26, 2010. Photo Credit: PIB

    February 07, 2010, (Splash News) - The Indian Army plans to pit a few of its Arjun MBTs against T-90S Bhisma tanks in a mock battle in the Rajasthan desert in March - April to help it determine if its should place additional orders for Arjuns.

    The Indian Army, which has reservations about the DRDO developed Arjuns and prefers to equip its armor regiments with the T-90 Bhisma, is coming under intense pressure to place additional orders for Arjuns, over and above the 124 tanks that it has so far ordered.

    The DRDO, as a civilian organization, has easy access to the press and has lined up journalists to crusade on its behalf in the name of indigenization and self sufficiency. DRDO bosses also have easy access to the Defense Minister.

    Army generals don't have easy access to the Defense Minister and risk a court martial by going to the press directly.

    Ironically, the Defense Minister controls both the army and DRDO. When it comes to arms procurement from the DRDO, he represents the vendor as well as the client. It is hard to be objective under the circumstances.

    Very often our armed forces get lumped with weapon systems that they don't want.

    You may or may not have noticed a concerted press campaign to show the Army in poor light for its reluctance to place additional Arjun orders.
    Ten T-90S Bhisma tanks on Rajpath. Photo Credit: PIB

    During past trials the Arjun proved to be a very unreliable weapon system. Besides other things it was plagued by frequent engine failures.

    The DRDO contends that the engine failures took place because the army deliberately sabotaged the engines! To the best of my knowledge, no investigation was ever carried out into the allegation, let alone the DRDO's charge proved.

    Journalists campaigning in favor of the Arjun are high lighting DRDO's sabotage charge without mentioning that the accusation had no basis. This is shoddy journalism.

    The journos are also high lighting tank characteristics such as weight, gun-caliber and power to weight ratio in insinuating that "corrupt generals" are opting for the inferior Bhisma over the more potent Arjun.

    I have very little knowledge about tanks but I have a lot of respect for the Indian Army. The occasional aberrations in the conduct of Army Generals are just that, occasional aberrations. They have not shaken my faith in the Indian Army as an institution and should not shake the faith of any other Indian.

    The Indian Army, is one of the finest institutions of the country, and thank god for it.

    Having been a war fighter, albeit a fighter pilot, I know we all crave for the best fighting systems because our lives depend on it. I do not believe a general can ever be so corrupt as to put the life of his officers and men at risk.

    There are far too many checks and balances within the Army for lobby to lump it with second grade weapon systems when a better option is available.

    If the Army prefers the Bhisma over Arjun I think the matter should end there. Since it hasn't, I took it upon myself to highlight the real issues in choosing between two tanks, as I understand them.

    It's not the weight of the tank, its engine horsepower, power to weight ratio, gun caliber, etc. that are as important as:

    1. The reliability of a tank's mobility system.
    2. Reliability of a tank's aiming and firing system.
    3. Mobility of the tank. Its ability to clear obstacles, go through water and over sand.
    4. Stand off range from which a tank can first engage the enemy.
    5. Rapidity with which it can engage the enemy while on the move. How many times can it fire within a given time frame and with what accuracy?
    6. Effectiveness of its armor protection. Manufacturers claims aren't helpful. Armor effectiveness is best established with actual trials.
    7. Active protection against anti-tank missiles.

    I have my take on where the two tanks stand based on my past interaction with armor corp officers. However, it is time to look at the issue afresh and the trials are being held precisely for that purpose. I understand both Arjun and Bhisma have undergone changes in the recent past.

    What I would like to see is the better tank inducted into the Indian Army. The last DRDO chief made a public statement that Indian Armed Forces should accept 10% substandard armament to encourage DRDO. I consider the statement outrageous.

    The reason why the better tanks needs to equip the Indian Army is because Pakistan's T-80UD tanks are at par with the Bhisma. Indeed, Pakistan's acquisition of the tanks from Ukraine triggered a knee jerk purchase of Bhismas by the Indian Army from Russia. So if Arjun is picked despite being 10% substandard, the nation should remember to turn to god, not the Indian Army the next time Pakistan acts belligerent.

    Epilogue

    I wrote this blog post after trying to get my point across on the blog of a journo who has lately been bashing the army and blatantly championing the cause of inducting more Arjuns.

    Guess what? My comment pointing out the lack of balance in the journos post wasn't published. It was then that I noticed that all the comments on the journos blog are appreciative of his stand. Some moderation and so much for journalistic ethics.

    News Copyright © Sawf News. May not be reproduced without explicit written permission


     

    Comments:

    Arjun
    By harsha_06 on Sunday, February 07, 2010 (EST)

    Please explain about the shortfalls the T-90 currently has and will have in future.

    - poor reliability in desert conditions.
    - poor performance of its thermal imaging
    systems.
    - No protection systems.
    - Limited types of ammo it can fire.


    Arjun on the other hand has a more powerful engine , hardened electronics , better armor and can fire many types of ammunition.

    T-90's have problems right now but i dont see any near solution for all the problems it has

    Arjun on the other hand is more reliable in Indian Environments and deserves more than 124 tanks of order from the army

    Reply to this Comment
     

    arjun tank
    By bones20 on Sunday, February 07, 2010 (EST)
    I am not a defense personal so my view should be taken in that context.

    for the overall well being of defense of India in terms of logistics/equipment and cost/self sufficiency, this is how I would pursue acquisitions:
    - Defense forces should accept indigenous products if they meet 85% of
    - 90% for russian
    - 95% for israel
    - 130% for european
    - 160% for american

    We do not want to fall in this cycle of never ending imports especially for bulk/expensive equipments like fighter jets and tanks. These are commodity items and need to be indigenized. If the army thinks there is a risk, they can reduce the risk my a certain percentage by acquiring supporting top of the line stuff. Thats the right way forward.

    With due respect, it is no hidden secret about coffers/kick backs in the defense acquisition. So take the reports of DRDO bashing atleast with a pinch of salt.

    One day you say LCA tejas is a decade too late and the next day you tweet saying its the step in the right direction. Why does Chinese army equiped with indigenous stuff. You think their stuff is top of the line? Naah because they want to achieve self dependency and Mao does not let them fill their pockets in kickbacks.













    Reply to this Comment
     

    Re: arjun tank
    By vkthakur on Monday, February 08, 2010 (EST)
    bones20,

    I am just thrilled you read my Tweets! Not many do.

    Reply to this Comment
     

    Re: Arjun
    By vkthakur on Monday, February 08, 2010 (EST)
    harsha_06,

    And you got the Bhisma defects from...?

    Reply to this Comment
     

    T-90 useful read
    By vkthakur on Monday, February 08, 2010 (EST)
    Some of you may find this anonymous knol on T-90 interesting.

    http://knol.google.com/k/t-90#

    Reply to this Comment
     

    Does Bhisma really deserve its name ?
    By harsha_06 on Monday, February 08, 2010 (EST)
    To start, here is an old link that was gives a brief overview of the then signed deal. you may not have to read it if you were follwing the news.

    http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/2001/02/02/stories/040255ku.htm

    The below links are a good example as to how the army deceived the MOD to push the T-90 deal.

    http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_army-govt-suppressing-real-cost-of-t-90-tanks_1343478

    http://www.business-standard.com/india/news/piercingarmy%5Cs-armourdeception/384570/

    The below link will give you a brief overview of the T-90 defects

    http://www.india-defence.com/reports/2081

    And this how Army is spending to keep even the old tanks working but just want to ignore the Arjun on ridiculous grounds.

    http://news.rediff.com/report/2010/feb/03/indian-army-to-spend-rs-5000-crore-on-obsolete-t72-tanks.htm


    This is the latest link i could get about the T-90 failures.

    http://frontierindia.net/t-90-s-is-a-dud-it-cant-fire-far-enough


    I am aware that India is getting T-90M tanks which are radically upgraded from the previously acquired T-90S versions. T-90M will address all the concerns that were raised with the T-90S with cryogenic cooling systems and new thermal sights.


    But the above links will be enough evidence to prove that the Army made up its mind on the Arjun from a long time and never wanted to induct it in numbers more than 124. Its weight of 59 tons is just another bad reason to deny additional orders.


    The US operates M1A1 which is 68 tons and has proven itself to be successful in urban warfare. The weight of Arjun is just another dumb reason. Its BMS is commendable.

    ITS FIRE CONTROL SYSTEM MAY FAIL AT 42C BUT ISNT IT THE SAME CASE WITH T-90 WITH OUT THE COOLING SYSTEMS ?


    Now the trials of T-90 vs Arjun are being delayed because Army never wants to face the real facts and it made up its mind with T-90 tank.







    Reply to this Comment
     

    Re: Does Bhisma really deserve its name ?
    By vkthakur on Tuesday, February 09, 2010 (EST)
    harsha_06,

    You have got all your facts from the press. Remember, the Army has no access to the press. The DRDO does.

    I do not believe you have spoken to any armoured corp officer who has experience with either of the tanks. None of the press stories below have quoted a serving armoured corp officer.

    More specifically

    http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_army-govt-suppressing-real-cost-of-t-90-tanks_1343478

    The DNA journo has got all his facts from the Business standard journo below. The story is an example of the dismal journalistics standards in the country.

    http://www.business-standard.com/india/news/piercingarmy%5Cs-armourdeception/384570/

    The Business standard journo is leading the Army bashing crusade. Notice, he too does not quote any serving Army source.

    He is the one who blocked me on his blog.

    http://news.rediff.com/report/2010/feb/03/indian-army-to-spend-rs-5000-crore-on-obsolete-t72-tanks.htm

    The Rediff story is a rehash of the Business standard story. The unsigned story credits Business Standard as its source.

    http://frontierindia.net/t-90-s-is-a-dud-it-cant-fire-far-enough

    The 2007 Frontier India story has got its facts from DRDO. Not one Army source is quoted.

    Reply to this Comment
     

    T-90 v/s Arjun
    By dhruva0211 on Tuesday, February 09, 2010 (EST)
    I think we need to have some perspective here

    1. I think Vijainder mentioned that both the T-90 and Arjun have undergone changes in the recent past. We need to look at the issue afresh and decide which tank is the best for the Indian army. These trials are precisely for that purpose. However, TIME is a critical dimension of all defence products - and that is something we are ignoring in case of Arjun. Arjun's platform was only ready for induction after rectification of all drawbacks by 2006. Whereas to be seriously considered the same should have been achieved way back in 1997-98. By the time of Op Parakaram getting over, a need for urgent modernisation had been adequately drawn home. Now, inducting the same is of no use (for even the T-90s will be relegated to 2nd line of tanks by 2020).

    2. The aim of Arjun project was not just to have the best tank for the Indian army - but also the domestic capability of building a tank. Atleast that capability is there with India - and we need to build on it. It should be borne in mind that all the defence products of India are really first generation. As we move on to second and third generation products - they are bound to be better. Russia has already proposed a joint project for a next-generation MBT, with a much higher speed, greater firepower, sophisticated armour protection, a new hunter-killer fire control system, a low silhouette, and the crew being networked to a virtual-reality command information system linked to reconnaissance aircraft and satellites. DRDO should not waste any time in getting into an arrangement with Russia to avoid repeating the fate of FGFA.

    3. I also think that it is for the army to decide which tank they are going to fight with. No body should force the decision on them - as a matter of professional conduct. If people notice, most of the defence scams did not directly involve serving army officers. Either the tainted persons were MoD civilians or retired army personnel working with defence companies. So, by and large, we can rely on the integrity of the army to make the right decision.

    4. T-90 is a world class tank - and there should not be any doubt on that. They have just too much experience in tank designing to make a bad tank. In 1942, their T-45 scared the hell out of even Adolf Hitler and broke the back of his panzer armies. Since then they have produced many tank models like T-55, T-72 and T-80. China had lobbied very hard to get the T-90 tanks for its armed forces. However, Russia turned its back on Chineese citing fears that they will reverse engineer T-90 tank.

    5. In today's war theatres, the importance of tank has diminished. Israel's Merkava was heavily punished by Hezbollah using nothing more than Russian RPG 7 in 2006 war. And Merkava is touted to be the most heavily protected tank of the world. Around 100 Abram tanks are already taken out by Iraqi resistance. I hope we are not sticking to old dogmas and conventional thinking while deciding to sink money on new tanks. Thinking from that angle, we also do not need to fear Pakistani T-80s. They will be easy meat for our Nag, Milan and Helina anti-tank missiles.

    6. One thing that Ajai Shukla (the Business standard journo) does very well is to highlight the screwed up procurement policy of MoD. I find it most scandalous that while MoD is okay with doing business with foreign defence companies l- they do not allow Indian companies to bid for defence contracts. Today, only DRDO is allowed to supply to Indian forces - and even they are handicapped due to internal politics and government policies. Allowing Indian companies to compete is best way to build domestic capability - it will force everybody to be more competitive and bring down price. Come to think of it, we can have Indian versions of Rafael, Boeing, Dassault, Lockheed Martin and Russina design bureaus.

    I also read that Ajai Shukla is a former army man himself. He is from the Poona cavalry or Poona light infantry (read it in one of the forums). Don't know how true it is though.

    Reply to this Comment
     

    T-90 Bhisma vs Arjun
    By silod on Tuesday, February 09, 2010 (EST)
    There will always be a tussle between what Army wants and what DRDO would like to sell....

    At one hand, procurement of weapon system is still whimsical with lot of kickbacks taking place on almost all the procurements. On the other hand, the weapon system made by DRDO is loathed largely by Armed forces.

    Then, we also debate a great whether we want to be the importers of the weapons or should we make our own state-of-the-art systems?

    No easy answers........ As I myself belong to private sector so I think the better way is to include a lot of private sector companies in developing the weapons that suit Armed forces best.....

    http://www.business-standard.com/india/news/ajai-shukla-israel-develops-capabilities-india-pays/385075/

    Reply to this Comment
     

    Arjun vs Bhisma
    By bones20 on Thursday, February 11, 2010 (EST)
    DRDO is very keen to see the performance of this trial and is pushing for this contest.

    The army is relectunct for reasons unknown.

    Its obvious kiski dadhi mein tinka. Any explanation Mr. Thakur?

    Reply to this Comment
     

    Re: Arjun vs Bhisma
    By vkthakur on Thursday, February 11, 2010 (EST)
    bones20,

    > The army is relectunct for reasons unknown.

    I am sorry I haven't seen the missive from Army HQs to the MOD indicating their reluctance to hold stand off trials. Perhaps the journalist you believe in has. If so, journalistic ethics mandate that he publish a copy of the communication that he has obtained through "his sources" in view of the gravity of the implicit charge - That we have a rotten and corrupt Army!

    If there is indeed such a letter, the letter must have stated the Army's reason for not wanting to go ahead with another trial. The least the journalist should have done was to give the reasons stated by the Army so that his readers can come to a fair conclusion.

    Good journalists report truthfully and let their readers decide.

    Even if the journalist has seen the Army HQ letter he should give us more details. Assuming that he could not access the letter, perhaps he tried to obtain it using RTI and was turned down. Why not give us your RTI effort details?

    I can think of many good reasons why the Army would be reluctant for such trials but that is not the point you are making. You want to know the Army's reason not my conjectures on what could be the Army's reasons.

    I do not believe it is a 'kiski dadhi mein tinka' situation. At least not yet.

    Reply to this Comment
     

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