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  • Are Indian Fighter Pilots better than US Fighter Pilots?
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    IAF's force structure: Do we have too many Su-30MKIs?
    Posted by on Friday, December 04, 2009 (EST)
    Starting with the recent Su-30MKI accident, an India Today story makes the case that the IAF's fleet structure is skewed and its MMRCA tendering confused.
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    IAF Su-30MKI. Photo Credit: Andy

    December 03, 2009, (Sawf News) - Starting with the recent Su-30MKI accident, an India Today story makes the case that the IAF's fleet structure is skewed and its MMRCA tendering confused.

    What's wrong with IAF's Sukhoi? asks defense journalist Manoj Joshi.

    I wondered if the horribly confused analysis was even worth refuting, but since it was carried in a reputed publication I decided to do so. However, I will keep it short.

    Manoj Joshi takes the routine temporary grounding of Su-30MKIs to make out a case that the IAF is excessively reliant on the "very expensive" Su-30MKI. He then goes on to suggest the service should procure cheaper fighters like Swedish Gripen, the American F- 16 or the Russian MiG-29.

    Firstly, such groundings happen all the time and in all the Air Forces. The grounding does not mean the country is exposed. The Su-30MKIs can take to the skies within minutes in case of any emergency. It is a precautionary grounding to avoid any further unnecessary loss of life or equipment. Remember the Su-30MIKs operated for 12 years without a single accident.

    Joshi's fixation on costs is based on delusional ideal force structure that he seems to have concocted over some heady beverages.

    "An ideal air force has a pyramid structure with its best cutting edge fighter on top, a tier- two workhorse and, at the bottom, large numbers of less capable tier- three fighters. By their current plan, the IAF could end up with an inverted pyramid. It could end up with as many as 280 heavy Sukhoi 30- MKI and around 126 medium fighters for which a competition is currently underway."

    Says who? Does the US have any "less capable tier-three fighters"?

    Fighters can be broadly classified according to the role they are honed for like Interception (F-22, MiG-21), Interception and Attack (F-16, F-15, F/A-18, Mirage 2000, Su-30MKI), Attack (Jaguars, Tornados) and Close Air Support (Hawk, Thunderbolt).

    Lacking the technology to build highly capable multi-role fighters, Russia and China have relied on interceptors with some attack capability. They have relied on numbers to offset American technological lead. The MiG-21 is an example.

    However, quantity has never been able to offset quality in any modern air war. As a result, both Russia and China are striving to improve the quality of their weapon systems, not focusing on numbers.

    IAF too was forced to rely on numbers to begin with because of the country's alignment with the Soviet Union. The service fielded 20 MiG-21 squadrons at one time, more than half its fighter strength. As a result, the IAF was forced into a largely defensive role in the 1965 and 1971 wars.

    IAF's limited attack capability tends to embolden Pakistan into risky adventures.

    It is time for the IAF to acquire a formidable attack capability, and rely on quality rather than numbers. Additional MiG-29 and Gripen acquisition will force the IAF to continue in its defensive posture.

    Joshi also assumes that the 250 MiG-21 variants, all cheap but capable fighters, will suddenly vanish when the MMRCA deal is inked. It will be decades before all of them are phased out. The MiG-21 Bison, for example, is a very capable air defense fighter.

    He assumes that the LCA will never enter service, even though the IAF has already ordered two squadrons and the MOD's initial plans call for seven LCA squadrons.

    Coming to think of it, Joshi is even more skeptical than me about the LCA. I just say it will be dumped on the IAF, which is not to suggest it is incapable of shooting down a lumber Atlantique across the border. Heck, with a capable AESA and BVR missile it could also knock down a PAF F-16 or A-10, conceivably even the F-35 that PAF will eventually acquire. (Okay, I made that last one up to rattle some of you folks again.)

    News Copyright © Sawf News. May not be reproduced without explicit written permission


     

    Comments:

    Critique
    By harsha_06 on Friday, December 04, 2009 (EST)
    About MKI:

    Honestly I dont think MKI is a "very expensive fighter". The quoted price tag of 45 mil for each of these fighter jets to be made completely in Russia with all the Indian , French and Italian avionics supplied is not a bad at all. On the contrary we have a fighter jet that can stay almost half a day in air ( with inflight refuelling ) doing multiple roles ( strike, interception, recon and as a mini-awacs ).

    The only limitation or the disadvantage is its high RCS which makes it unsuitable for performing deep striked in enemy territories even under the presence of nominal air-defence cover. It is reported that its frontal RCS is also not good when compared to the present day fighters. This is for the very reason that we are now in the process of acquiring MMRCA's for the purpose of performing interdiction missions deep inside enemy territory.

    IMO the number of MKI's does provide a little concern. When all of these 280 big birds are retiring, what are we going to replace them with ? On the contrary , 280 birds out of the planned 990 aircraft (~45 squadrons ) seems to be only a fraction of our planned air force strength and we should not face trouble like we are facing today in replacing the Mig-21's.

    What makes the author think that the 250 mig bisons will disappear when the MMRCA deal is inked ? Our squadron strength now stands at 31. We need 14 more squadrons (~350 more pilots and 305 aircraft ) to meet the threat level at all the three fronts ( East, west and the Indian ocean region). Making such a statement would be called reckless.

    Personally do you think everything will be solved with regards to MMRCA once the deal is signed ? Do you think the supply of more than 126 - 1 squadron of MMRCA fighters by HAL or the public or private sector companies will go smoothly and as scheduled once the deal is signed ? Do you think HAL will have no problem absorbing the technology of the top of the notch fighters and the suppliers will give everythin we ask for in the MMRCA deal ?


    I dont think so. I quote the Scorpene submarine deal and AJT Hawk deal as references.


    About LCA:

    Who in the hell says that LCA doesnot deserve a place in IAF more than the present order of 2 squads ?

    LCA may not be on par with the present 4++ generation fighters. At the best it compares with the F-16 models developed in 1970's. But a point to note is that F-16 base model in 1970's is also flying now after 30 years with upgrades in avionics and changes in its airframe.


    For a nation which has never drawn an aircraft on a design board before, manufacturing an LCA like aircraft with just 30-35% of foreign components is a very good effort. LCA has a very good growth potential and will be in IAF inventory for a while.


    Pyramid Structure (??????)

    Who the heck came up with this suggestion and called it an ideal airforce structure ? A nations airforce structure is dictated by its doctrine and threat perceptions on its borders. This so called ideal structure seems a piece of crap to me. We are dealing with things like defence and integrity of a country and protection of its territory and its interests. We are not dealing with parameters of an economy to suggest an ideal model.

    As the enemy changes / grows , so should our defence structure and its composition. There is nothing called ideal structure / composition in armed forces. IMO adaptation is the main aspect. Only principles and our doctrine are the ones that shouldnt change ( I may be wrong in the second part ). You cannot dictate quality and their numbers and say that is ideal for all eternity.


    Reply to this Comment
     

    to mr thakur and harsha
    By shudra14 on Saturday, December 05, 2009 (EST)
    if you got to WWW.NIIP.RU

    there are videos of IRBIS E and BARS radar newly added which shows that both radar are able to perform both air to air and air to ground modes.

    Reply to this Comment
     

    bars
    By shudra14 on Saturday, December 05, 2009 (EST)
    simultaneously

    Reply to this Comment
     

    LCA
    By harsha_06 on Tuesday, December 08, 2009 (EST)
    http://indiadefenceonline.com/1491/iaf-pushes-for-lca-upgrades-and-additional-aircraft/



    This could be some proof for someone who doesnot believe LCA will not last with IAF. Even thought IAF knows that LCA in its present state is not good they are pushing for its upgrades and will be maintaining it in their inventory. So for what reason could be the 99 engine tender going on except for the fact that IAF will be inducting atleast 3-4 more squadrons of improved LCA's.

    Reply to this Comment
     

    Why IAF needs LCA??
    By dhruva0211 on Wednesday, December 09, 2009 (EST)

    IAF Placing order for second Tejas squardon

    Business Standard, 23rd Nov 09
    =================================================
    The Indian Air Force is taking a crucial step towards accepting the indigenous Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) as a replacement for its ageing MiG-21 fighters. Senior air force officers have told Business Standard that the IAF is ordering a second Tejas squadron (20 aircraft), in addition to the 20 fighters that are already on order.

    Mr Ashok Nayak, the Chairman of Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, which will manufacture the Tejas, has confirmed this development. “The MoD tender for 20 additional Tejas fighters is on track”, he told Business Standard. “After it is issued, we will sit down with the MoD, and negotiate a price.”

    The order for a second squadron is a vital expression of IAF confidence in the future of the long-running Tejas programme. So far, the IAF had insisted on evaluating the performance of the first squadron before ordering a second, by around 2015-2016. That would also allow the Tejas to be upgraded to the Tejas Mark II, which would have a new, more powerful, engine. But now, with its fighter fleet dwindling as the old MiG-21s are retired, the IAF is taking the Tejas as it is.

    “The Tejas, even with its current GE-404 engine, is a better fighter than the MiG-21”, explains a senior IAF officer who is familiar with equipment policy; “by 2015, the first Tejas squadron will be ready for the IAF. HAL’s assembly line will be free; while the Tejas Mark II finishes testing, HAL can build a second squadron with the GE-404 engine.”

    So far, the plan was to produce 12 twin-seater Tejas trainers after the first squadron was built. The new order will be for 18 single-seater and 2 twin-seater Tejas: exactly what equips a fighter squadron.

    Here’s why the IAF urgently needs that second squadron: Against a sanctioned requirement of 39.5 squadrons (each squadron has 21 fighters), the IAF is now down to just 32 squadrons. By 2015, another six squadrons of MiG-21s and two squadrons of MiG-27s would have finished their service lives. Meanwhile, HAL is manufacturing Sukhoi-30MKIs, but the current production is just 14 per year. The mathematics is clear: by 2015, the IAF will have just 29 squadrons of fighters.

    Making this shortfall even more worrisome, is the new requirement of five IAF squadrons for north-east India, as a result of an increased threat assessment from China. Senior IAF officers have recently declared that India actually needs 45 squadrons.

    In this context that the IAF cannot wait to induct the Tejas as the next light fighter, a role that the MiG-21 has long performed. Medium fighters are as urgently needed, and the IAF is currently evaluating six aircraft for this role. But the new Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA), even if the contract is placed expeditiously, is unlikely to enter service before 2015-16. Only in the heavy fighter segment is the IAF well placed, with the superlative Sukhoi-30MKI steadily joining the fleet.

    The Tejas is currently undergoing weapons trials to obtain its Initial Operational Clearance, most likely by early 2011. Then starts the two-year process for obtaining Final Operational Clearance, after which it can enter service in early 2013. Then, if HAL can deliver 10 Tejas fighters per year, the first squadron will be ready by end 2014. And, if all of that goes smoothly, the second Tejas squadron will join the IAF by end-2016.

    The IAF has decided that No 45 Squadron, which operated MiG-21M fighters until they were recently retired, will be the first Tejas squadron. It will be based in Sulur, near Coimbatore. It is still unclear where the second Tejas squadron will be based.

    Reply to this Comment
     

    LCA
    By Narendra Kothapalli on Saturday, December 12, 2009 (EST)
    Sir,
    Is the Tejas better than the J-10,the bulk fighter of the Chinese and Pakistani air forces?

    Reply to this Comment
     

    PAF F-16's
    By harsha_06 on Thursday, December 24, 2009 (EST)
    Can anybody confirm the F-16 variant the PAF is purchasing from the US ?

    Are they block 50/52 or block 50/52+ ?

    I am finding articles on net that suggest both ways.

    Reply to this Comment
     

    Re: PAF F-16'S
    By dhruva0211 on Wednesday, December 30, 2009 (EST)
    Harsha,

    PAF is going to induct F-16 Bloc-52 aircraft from 2010 onwards.

    This was disclosed by Chief of the Air Staff Rao Qamar Suleman at the induction ceremony of Saab-2000 ERIEYE AEW&C aircraft.

    Please find the source below:

    http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/news/pakistan/06-induction-ceremony-of-saab-2000-aircraft-held-rs-06

    Reply to this Comment
     

    PAF F-16s
    By harsha_06 on Wednesday, December 30, 2009 (EST)
    Then what is this then

    http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2009/10/13/333408/pictures-lockheed-martin-unveils-first-f-16-block-52-ordered-by-pakistan.html

    Take a close look at the second picture.

    Block-52's dont have CFTs . Only Block-52+ has CFTs.

    That was the main reason i asked the question.


    Reply to this Comment
     

    To Harsha!
    By dhruva0211 on Thursday, December 31, 2009 (EST)
    Harsha,

    The variants that Pakistan is purchasing are Bloc 52 +.

    This is becuase they are talking about APG-68(V9) radar which is used only in Bloc 52 +.
    Bloc 50 uses APG-68(V5)radar.

    I could not spot the CFT - but they might be there as well.

    Reply to this Comment
     

    Errata
    By dhruva0211 on Thursday, December 31, 2009 (EST)
    Sorry for the correction

    Bloc 50 and 52 uses the same APG-68(V5) radar. They differ in the engines - however radar is same.
    Bloc 52+ uses APG-68(V9) radar.

    Reply to this Comment
     

    Re: To Dhruva
    By harsha_06 on Thursday, December 31, 2009 (EST)
    You got to be kidding me if you can't spot the CFTs in that picture. You need to have a better eye when you see an aircraft picture.Here are some of the pics of older F-16s PAF has. Watch the dorsal spine of the aircraft which seems to be bulged which confirms the CFTs for PAF.

    http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-photos-multimedia/11026-paf-f16-few-old-new-pictures.html


    The 2nd video should give you a better view of the new PAF's F-16's dorsal spine view.

    http://thecurrentaffairs.com/pakistan-air-force-new-f-16-block-52.html



    Here are two more links of the Pictures of the new F-16's PAF will be getting. Again watch for the dorsal spine area.


    http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/37173-exclusive-pictures-paf-f-16-block-52-induction-ceremony.html

    http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=167358



    Also the APG-68(V9) radar together with the AIM-120-C5 that PAF is getting poses a serious threat to the IAF in terms of BVR combat.


    Reply to this Comment
     

    Suggestion and question
    By silod on Monday, January 04, 2010 (EST)
    Mr. Thakur,

    I have one suggestion and one question.

    1. The suggestion is simple. Can you do some twiking in your blog so that we come to know that which comment is added under which Article or news headline? Say, a lot of debate has been taking place on PAF F-16 but it is difficult to know under which Article the comments on PAF F-16 have been added. In this particular example, all the comments are added under " IAF's force structure". So, my advice is to tweak the site in such a way that we come to know that this particular comment has been added under this particular Article/News.

    2. The question is where are we in terms of user evaluation trail on all the aircrafts in MMRCA competition?

    Reply to this Comment
     

    Blog organization
    By vkthakur on Saturday, January 09, 2010 (EST)
    Silod,

    Currently, the only way to search through articles and comments is to use the Google Custom Search.

    Since Google doesn't index real time, the option rarely works well.

    When a comment is initially posted you can click on the Return to parent link below. However, it becomes difficult to locate a comment later on.

    An option that I have suggested in the past, but has been shot down, is to use the Discussion section. For example, we could start a discussion on Pakistan's F-16 procurement. We will then know where to look for the information.

    I know there is a lot of useful information scattered around that is hard to locate...

    Reply to this Comment
     

    Re: Blog Organization
    By harsha_06 on Saturday, January 09, 2010 (EST)

    That doesnt sound like a bad idea.


    Reply to this Comment
     

    Blog Organisation
    By silod on Monday, January 11, 2010 (EST)
    Mr. Thakur,

    The idea suggested by you makes most of the sense in the present circumstances. I am all for it.

    By the way, asking you again, where are we in terms of "user evaluation trial" of MMRCA?

    Reply to this Comment
     

    Serial production of JF-17 Thunder expedited
    By alviataylor on Thursday, January 28, 2010 (EST)
    While the India Tejas (LCA) remains mired in testing and failures for the past two decades, the Pakistani establishment and the PAF has shared technology with the Chinese and developed a brand new fighter in a record 4 years.The Pakistan Air Force has traditionally been known as one of the most professional air forces in the world. But the 1990s was a tough decade for the PAF and much of their prestige was lost. Pakistan chose to invest in nuclear weapons and diverted resources there. Damaging sanctions against Pakistan also hurt the PAF more than any other armed service. Thus, a decade was lost and PAF was left behind. The Indian Air Force meanwhile, found the 1990s most fruitful.

    http://rightnreal.com/serial-production-of-jf-17-thunder-expedited/

    Reply to this Comment
     

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