Vijainder K Thakur
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  • Photos - MiG-29 OVT at MAKS-2005
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    Babur Cruise Missile
    Posted by on Saturday, August 13, 2005 (EST)
    Pakistan's remarkable success in testing a long range cruise missile has brought out weaknesses in our strategic intelligence and weapon development.
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    Pakistan's recent testing of the Babur cruise missile is sure to have rattled decision makers in New Delhi. Though there has been no official comment, reaction to the event in the Indian press is a good indicator that our government had no clue of what Pakistan was upto.

    Initial press reports harped on the fact that the missile must have been developed with outside assistance, possibly from China. Big deal! Does that make the missile any less potent? Besides, the facade of joint production notwithstanding, our own Brahmos is really a derivative of the Russian Yakhont missile, tweaked to conform to the limitations of the MTCR regime. Incidentally, while our Brahmos is chained to 300 km range limit for ever the Babur is already 200kms ahead!

    There can be no denying that Pakistan has achieved a remarkable success in developing a sophisticated weapon system. I think rather than grudging Pakistan its success we should focus on the strategic implications of that success for us. In addition we need to focus on

    • Our apparant dismal lack of strategic intelligence.
    • The poor performance of our own weapon development programs vis-a-vis Pakistan.

    Intelligence Failure

    There is good circumstancial evidence to suggest that the Babur is based on off the shelf components procured by Pakistan from abroad.

    The fact that the development of the missile by Pakistan went undetected was because of the fact that it was never developed by Pakistan. An attempt to build a cruise or a ballistic missile from scratch is easy to detect, even for Indian intelligence! Testing of unproven rocket motors requires building of physical infrastructure that can be detected by commercially available high resolution satellites.

    Another indicator is the confidence expressed by General Pervez Musharaf in the capabilities of the Babur missile after just its first test. If a complex system, such as a cruise missile, were to be developed from scratch it would take years if not decades of testing to acquire the confidence that General Prevez Musharaf expressed. India's own labored effort with developing ballistic and air defense missile development illustrates my point.

    One could suggest that the General was boasting and that the missile is neither fully developed nor as potent as he would want us and his countrymen to believe. Indeed, there is no denying the proclivity of the Pakistani establishment to boast. The following statement attributed to a Pakistani army spokesperson illustrates the point.

    "It is a terrain hugging missile, which has the most advanced and modern navigation and guidance and a high degree of maneuverability and its technology enables it to avoid radar detection and penetrate undetected through any hostile defence system."

    Clearly the "most advanced" and "penetrate through any hostile defense system" bits are boasts. However, a boast is not a bluff. When General Pervez Musharraf stated :-

    "In quality, it (Babur) is far better. Brahmos has a range of 290-300 kilometres while … Babur can hit a target up to 500 kilometres".

    He was, in all probabilites, grounded in facts and if that is so like the Brahmos, Pakistan's Babur is based on a well tested weapon system.

    Clearly the Babur is not a home grown missile. Pakistan must have acquired the missile, its engines and electronics, all from abroad.

    Acquisition of critical missile components and technology from abroad by Pakistan should not have been difficult for our intelligence agencies to detect. Our country has good relations with western nations and Ukraine from where the electronics for the Babur were probably sourced. There are understandable difficulties in penetrating a closed society like China. However, Indian intelligence can compensate by better infiltrating Pakistan and maintaining closer liason with intelligence agencies of other friendly countries. I for one would be very surprised if the Mossad was not aware of it! Afterall, the Babur could easily find its way into Iranian and Palestinian hands!

    I think our focus should be on fixing our strategic intelligence apparatus so that Pakistan's purchase of critical missile components and technology abroad does not go undetected. Only then will we have an opportunity to prevent the dangerous escalation that seems to be taking place in the sub continent.

    One would imagine that the Kargil fiasco would have woken up India to the need for good intelligence. Apparantly, it has not.

    Frankly, a nuclear weapon state with such a pathetic strategic intelligence gathering capability as India is a danger to the entire world.

    Indigenous Weapon Development

    Measured by any yardstick, India's own weapon development progams have performed very poorly. When compared with efforts in Pakistan our failings appear magnified.

    If it has not so far dawned on our government that DRDO has been leading the nation up the garden path for decades now, it should now.

    Pakistan with the success of its Khalid MBT, JF-17 Combat Fighter and Missile development programs has shown that it is more cost effective to build on existing technology procured from abroad rather than create it. Indeed, our own Brahmos program illustrates the same.

    However, DRDO does not seem to have learnt any lessons. It continue to leverage its indigneous slogan, which has a compelling appeal to the sentiments of the uninformed masses, to grow in size and inefficiency. Its steady bloat is suckering the country out of its resources enfeebling, rather than strengthening it.

    Conclusion

    With the first test of the Babur cruise missile Pakistan has achieved a remarkable success. The missile itself poses little threat to India. The boasts of the Pakistani army spokesperson notwithstanding, cruise missiles can be detected and engaged. For example the F-18E/D with a AN/APG-79 AESA Radar and AIM-120 air to air missile can detect and engage a missile such as the Babur.

    Enagagement of cruise missile will be greatly assisted by the acquisition and the integration of the Phalcon AWACS from Israel in the years to come.

    Unlike ballistic missiles a subsonic cruise missile takes a significant amount of time to reach its target. This allows for a multiple layered defense.

    The threat to India will continue to be from ballistic missile that Pakistan fields now and in the future.

    The above perspective notwithstanding the Babur missile test does highlight the failures in Indian intelligence and defense production. These are serious failures considering that we are right in the middle of two nuclear armed and aggressive adversaries. The country's leadership should not only address these failures but assure the nation that they will not be repeated.

    Copyright © Vijainder K Thakur. May not be reproduced without explicit written permission


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    Babur
    By NV on Friday, August 19, 2005 (EST)
    Whats surprising to me is how quickly you take Pakistans claims at face value!

    And as regards the Brahmos- India is making a siginificant contribution to the missile. We are responsible for :

    1.The Fire Control Electronics
    2.The Launching System
    3.Mission planning system
    4. Nav-attack system based on DRDO's INS for the Agni and Prithvi, with a dedicated On board computer
    5.The C3I for the Brahmos, including its wireless grid

    None of this would have come about but for the IGMDP.

    While you persist in your attacks on the DRDO- which is quite akin to editorializing, please note what the Navy Chief, Shri Arun Prakash said in July 2005 at Delhi. Excerpted from Force Magazine.

    "In our quest for self-reliance, over the past 60 years, we have as a deliberate measure nurtured research and development by working closely with the DRDO. They may have had their share of hiccups and delays, but for the Indian Navy, the DRDO has produced winners in the area of sonars (both hull-mounted and towed-array), radars, ESM, ECM, communications, data link and combat management systems; and world class missiles and torpedoes are on the way. "

    Posts like yours are so one sided that they make one wonder.

    Do you really serve the cause of debate well without even bothering to acknowledge all that DRDO *has* done, instead of using each and every incident to attack them?

    Does it not cause you to introspect sir, that the IAF cannot brag the same about its relationship?
    The Indian Navy today has dedicated engineering teams which work along with the DRDO to develop an deploy such units. Where is the IAF's Weapons Engineering and Systems Establishment as compared to the Navy's?

    As an author, one would expect that you maintain an element of balance. DRDO is no paragon of virtue, but to imply that they are "leading the nation down the garden path" flies in the face of both facts and logic.

    In the past few years- the DRDO has delivered:

    Mission Computers for the Jags and MiG27s
    RWRs for the entire IAF fleet [including the MKI's, bar the Mirages]
    Tempest jammers for the MiG27s
    ESM and ELINT equipment for the IAF's Boeing 737s
    Played a vital role in designing and integrating the Jag and 27 upgrades, including the HOTAS [derived from the LCA], Mission Planning Unit [LCA unit].
    RAM for the IAF fleet for RCS reduction.
    And one need not mention the host of small, but essential aids given to the BRD 11 and HAL Nasik for spares indigenization.
    Air Command and Control software for the IAF's radar grid
    Radar netting to link all the radars together
    The 3D CAR [radar] with a planar array for tracking upto 150 aircraft at ranges of 200km.
    Indra 2 gapfiller radars for the ADGEs.
    The Prithvi2 SSM with a range of 250km and its associated mission planning and target acquisition system.

    All this pales in comparison with what DRDO has done for the Navy but is creditable nonetheless.

    On the other hand, your repeated attacks and vitriol against the organization leave a bad taste in the mouth, especially given the fact that you make no attempt whatsoever to maintain a balance.

    And as regards merely purchasing technology- your views fly in the face of both economic sense and sourcing restrictions. The bulk of DRDO's sourcing comes from India based SME [small medium enterprises] and engineering majors such as the Larsen and Toubro Inc and the TATAs [NELCO, SED, CMC].

    And you may be glad to know that your article is already being used as propoganda by assorted Pakistanis et al. Job well done, sir!

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    And this
    By NV on Friday, August 19, 2005 (EST)
    "Measured by any yardstick, India's own weapon development progams have performed very poorly. When compared with efforts in Pakistan our failings appear magnified."

    Really? Where then is Pakistan's Pinaka [cleared by the Army for induction]

    Where is Pakistans SAMYUKTA?

    Where is Pakistans SANGRAHA?
    Which encompasses ALL naval platforms from ships to aircraft, and includes ESM and ECM [jammers]?

    Where are Pakistans radars?
    Do they have a 3D Phased Array FCR as the Rajendra is? Inducted by the Army as a weapon locator?

    Where is a 3D Central Acquisition radar?
    Does Pak make any of its own?

    Where are Pakistans SONARS[Submarine, Ship]?

    Where are its datalinks?

    Where are its Cand C systems?

    And as regards the JF-17, the aircraft has neither been inducted yet nor operationalized. And Pakistans contribution to it is a joke. It is merely licensed production under a fancy name.

    The Al Khalid is but another T-72 modification, supplied by NORINCO as the MBT-2000 and licensed to Pakistan for production.

    The Chinese themselves dont think the tank is quite upto the mark and are deploying the Type 99.

    Per your standards, the MiG21 Bis production at HAL was an Indian achievement, merely because MiG MAPO took some care to incorporate Indian needs!


    **If it has not so far dawned on our government that DRDO has been leading the nation up the garden path for decades now, it should now.***

    Perhaps because they get feedback from the services and realize that DRDO are not a bunch of useless fools as you portray them out to be.

    ****Pakistan with the success of its Khalid MBT, JF-17 Combat Fighter and Missile development programs has shown that it is more cost effective to build on existing technology procured from abroad rather than create it. Indeed, our own Brahmos program illustrates the same. ****


    Right, and what happens when people stop selling to you?

    Where do you plan to get long range SSMs from? China? North Korea?

    Every nation deploys an acquisition matrix- a combination of homegrown and imported items.

    But in your words, we'd be better off chucking off whatever we make and merely importing. That does nothing to improve India's technology base or grow our abilities, or source spares when the chips are down.

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    Poor and one sided analysis
    By BH on Friday, August 19, 2005 (EST)
    Just because the Babur is ADVERTISED with a range of 500 km doesn't make it better than the Brahmos.
    Take note that it was also claimed that the Babur has a CEP value in centimeters. Does this claim mean that it is exponentially better than a Tomahawk missile? Like NV said, don't take these claims as face value. One more claim you can look at is the serial production of the missile within one month from the first test flight. Is this a load of poorly scripted pakistani poppycock or is Pakistan so advanced that they would complete development so soon? One can't even do the same with a simple piece of commercial software. Or is this a dead giveaway that this missile has simply been bought off the shelf from an external source?

    We don't know the actual guidance systems onboard the Babur at this point. It may fly on purely inertial navigation. It may or may not employ TERCOM and DSMAC as Pakistan does not have the technological base to develop them. Pakistani press reports claim that "cameras" adjust the height of Babur without having a clue that TERCOM is actually performed by radar instead. Or have the developers bluffed as expected?

    The Brahmos has active radar guidance for the terminal stage that is so good that it could pick
    out the programmed land based target from a large set of identical targets built up around the area, against heavy ground clutter. It hit the target with pinpoint accuracy.

    The Brahmos is semi autonomous. It can be launched at the edge of its flight envelope, scan for, and pick the ideal target to attack. The active radar seeker range is 3-4 times that of contemporary anti-ship missiles and also translates to a supersonic flight range of 3-4 times greater since the terminal phase is executed on selection of the target. Do note that this means a profile of Mach 3 at 10-15 feet ASL which means extreme pressure/form drag to be overcome for a distance of >3 times the terminal seeker ranges of other AsHMs.

    Unlike the Babur, the speed and terminal flight profile of the Brahmos means that the latter will not be shot down. Slow flying cruise missiles once spotted by radar can easily be shot down. In the case of ships, the Brahmos also performs high-G terminal maneuvers. The KE of the supersonic impact and 300 kg warhead will ensure that the target does not survive. The Babur is virtually useless against well protected warships and is only applicable towards large, stationary targets.

    Effective navigation and the onboard terrain library means a huge amount of intelligence (airborne) and cartographic mapping which is beyond Pakistan's capability. It would also need an effective C4I infrastructure in place.

    Coming back to the range, it was also mentioned that the Brahmos flies as low as 10-15 feet ASL once the target is selected. A different flight profile of a few hundred feet sustained and a slightly slower speed would yeild a much higher range. The Tomahawk's lowest height AGL is ~100 feet.

    The difference is also that the Brahmos is an open joint venture between NPO Mash and DRDO. India is not buying missiles from abroad, repainting them orange and testing them to claim that they are indigenous products.

    Oh and the Yakonht doesn't really work and this is why NPO Mash is collaborating with DRDO to offer the missile (Brahmos) as a complete, working Package. The Brahmos will also be air and sub launched as a univeral missile.

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    ...
    By NV on Monday, August 22, 2005 (EST)
    The yakhont does work, but India customized the Brahmos to its requirements. The IGMDP has allowed us access to some truly modern abilities and design aids which we are using as need be.

    Just in case Mr Thakur does feel the need to actually research what DRDO has done- he may go this webpage and look through the reports in PDF format. They have separate listings for the DRDO.
    http://mod.nic.in/reports/welcome.html

    There are publically available citations for each and every point in the prior posts- all one needs to do is look through them. A time consuming but interesting exercise.

    Furthermore, he notes that the AESA on the F/A-18 E/F can pick up cruise missiles. The same can be said of the PESA on the Su30MKI which has sterling performance- it picked up Su27s at over 300 km. While a reduced RCS cruise missile will be picked up at closer ranges, the Bars radar on the MKI does have the performance to do so. Its predecessor, the Zaslon on the MiG31, from which the Bars was derived, was intended to pick up cruise missiles and similar low RCS, low flying, targets at even high speeds [most cruise missiles are subsonic].

    Anyhow, I doubt whether all of this has any effect whatsoever. Mr Thakurs next "article" will be again skewering DRDO or whichever Indian organization he feels deserves a bashing for the heck of it.

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    A very Sub-standard Article
    By ajay_hk on Monday, August 22, 2005 (EST)
    Your views in this article are not only biased but can be considered fictitious beyond reasoning.

    //An attempt to build a cruise or a ballistic missile from scratch is easy to detect, even for Indian intelligence!//

    This statement of yours shows the level of immaturity in the articles u write about. India's own missile devolopment is very poor!!! On what basis have you made this comment? Your comments on DRDO are nothing but childish. With this article one thing is clear, there are still a lot of vested interests in our country, that believe India is still a under-developed nation. All I can say is to grow up please for god's sake!!!! ppl who read these articles are not a bunch of fools. Please consider all the facts before writing articles and back them up with references not personal interpretations.

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    Please!
    By NV on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 (EST)
    Guys, a humble request, no personal attacks please- whats the point in generating acrimony? Furthermore, Mr Thakur has served and that deserves respect, even if we disagree with his comments.
    If we have points- lets make them and factually.

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    Babur is based on Tomahawk
    By viki23 on Sunday, October 02, 2005 (EST)
    I read somewhere that its design is a copy of the tomahawk missile. They had collected those unexploded one's in either Afghanistan or in those remote areas of northern Pakistan and with China's touch its now BABUR. They are actually very similar except for the small canards the tomahawks have.

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    babur cruise misile
    By iamnew on Thursday, November 17, 2005 (EST)
    as i can see everyone is criticizing Mr Thakur's views. but he is very near to truth than all of u. my mother works in a DRDO establishment and i know how people work there,the internal politics and all other junk. The DRDO is probably the worst managed defence organization on the globe.its efficiency is very poor. 10 people do the work of one. so please dont attack Mr Thakur.with the funding it gets and the manpower it has the DRDO should have compleated the LCA in the last century and should have learnt lessons for its MCA. but thats not the case.please think for a while before criticizing.and about the Indian intelligence, dont u think it has failed. The kargil war was the result of it.

    and about
    1.The Fire Control Electronics
    2.The Launching System
    3.Mission planning system
    4. Nav-attack system based on DRDO's INS for the Agni and Prithvi, with a dedicated On board computer
    5.The C3I for the Brahmos, including its wireless grid

    these are for BRAHMOS but what about TRISHUL, do u know it was a failure. it never travelled more than a few meters from the launch site.

    DRDO needs a renaissance in its management.

    this institution has got the best manpower our country can offer, and it should be utilized in a good manner. beleive me, u will never beleive what u will see in any DRDO laboratory if u visit it on any working day.only half of the employees will be working according to schedules.
    so please stop admiring the DRDO blindly.

    Mr Thakur was not completly correct. For his knowledge i would like to say "only GOD can save the target of BRAHMOS" . its far more sophisticated than what parvez musharraf knows.



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    Interesting!
    By NV on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 (EST)
    Iamnew, its hilarious to see your comments- all this - my mother worked there, my grandfather worked there stories are good for children- anyone can claim anything on the internet.Please do provide proof of your identity, antecedents, including your IP and then your words can be taken with any degree of seriousness, its all too common to see such a charade perpetrated on the net by our friendly brethren.

    >>as i can see everyone is criticizing Mr Thakur's views. but he is very near to truth than all of u. my mother works in a DRDO establishment and i know how people work there,the internal politics and all other junk. The DRDO is probably the worst managed defence organization on the globe.

    This is utter nonsense. DRDO's work is heavily audited and its accomplishments are clear, as are its foibles- the same exists of the services. Need I psot of the IAF & IA's internal politicking to rubbish the other areas where they do excel? All this my business is true of any large organization- across the world.
    As regards management- how many defence organizations have you known? Or even seen?
    The Navy in particular is fully supportive of & praises the DRDO. But we have your glib statements to rely upon as versus the Navy Chiefs.

    >>>its efficiency is very poor.

    No proof provided, but ah! Its the internet!

    >>>10 people do the work of one.

    Same as above! If one compares DRDO's manpower to any Russian organization handling the same span of tasks to even Thales, DRDO is dwarfed but we have woefully underresearched comments like yours.

    >>>so please dont attack Mr Thakur.with the funding it gets and the manpower it has the DRDO should have compleated the LCA in the last century and should have learnt lessons for its MCA.


    Utter bilge- none here attacked VK Thakur- as if he were some child requiring your defence, we merely presented an opposite and dare I say it, a more balanced point of view. At least read up something on the program before posting utter gibberish! The LCA program was virtually stuck for funds when India had its economic crisis. And making a fighter is like making a teflon coated frying pan, one presumes from your posts.

    >>>but thats not the case.

    And thank goodness for that.

    >>>>lease think for a while before criticizing.

    I fear you need your own grautitous advice more than anyone else here.

    >>>Trishul

    The Trishuls three beam guidance method issue is well known and noted by DRDO itself.

    >> Half the employees are not working

    This is utter bilge- as far as ADA and some other Bangalore / Hyd based labs are concerned. Odious generalizations are useless. This is not to say that all DRDO orgs have been perfect or A- Grade! Anything but, the problems in some labs are well catalogued.


    >>>>and about the Indian intelligence, dont u think it has failed. The kargil war was the result of it.

    Huh?

    >>admiring DRDO blindly

    I suggest you read this thread in a more complete manner- instead of coming up with ridiculous assertions.

    As can be seen, your comments presciently appeared on a Pakistani forum, within all of five days- I do wonder how! Identity crisis indeed!
    http://www.pakdef.info/forum/showthread.php?p=76401#post76401

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    Thakurji is right
    By joe2020 on Tuesday, March 21, 2006 (EST)
    I agree with Thakurji. Its an eye opener. there is serious mismanagement in these institutions. Some have fared better than the other exAtomic Energy,though not at the desired level. No doubt DRDO has done some wonderful work. But it is not in reality in most cases when it comes to threat perception. To win a war, we dont need TD, we need weapons that work on the battlefield & that gives us a clear victory.I dont understand how we can survive with these tech demonstrators(TD). These drdo developments take place without any intelligence input into it on what our adversaries are developing. We are always tring to reinvent the wheel. Beg borrow or steal if we cant develop it in time. Once you master & reverse engineer, start investing into R&D to develop our own technology. To ensure superiority over others we sould not end up trying to develop box wheels that do not revolve smoothly.........Bottom line is the threat is looming all around our borders & our armed forces need weapons that work on the battle field.........

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    Indegenous defence production
    By shantanu on Friday, March 31, 2006 (EST)
    Hello everyone,
    I have some thoughts about how india can become self sufficient in terms of weapons production that I wish to share with Mr. thakur and readers
    The thing to do here for india is to follow US's example. US has many private corporations boeing, genereal dynamics to name a few that are involved in research, design and manufacture of sophisticated weapons systems. Following their footsteps india should allow/encourage private sector companies to not just as supplly of parts of weapon systems but also to research, design and manufacture the whole of weapon system.
    What do u guys think of it.

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    DRDO
    By sniperz on Friday, April 07, 2006 (EST)

    DRDO is like any other governmental organization- lot of good work, lot of bad work and lot of no work. What must be appreciated must be that even with a small buget (compared to other defense organizations), there is a lot of good work coming out of it.

    While foreign defense companies have budgets of tens of billions of dollars, and china puttinf aside almost 7% of is GDP for military modernization(some says its much more), the DRDO has these successes with only about 2000 or so crores annually.

    true, we may not have had a lot of successes, but even in failures, there have been a lot of learning experiences. An example would be the trishul.A disaster as a viable missile, it is being continued as a technology demonstrator to develop new tech.

    The Kaveri engine, which many believe is a white elephant has been looked at enthusiastically by snecma and co., who are singing praises about its
    potential. I quote, "At first,we were confused about the engine, but now we are quite sure that it is a winner. It is an amazing system, and only needs a few changes to make it perform". If the kaveri was a flop, these guys wouldnt have been jumping to aid DRDO in its development.

    Please dont ignore the fact that all other developers also face failures at about the same rate as DRDO. Just that they have much more funds, better technology, more experience and INDIAN BRAINS (Lots of NRIs are working with US cos. on defense projects- imagine if they worked for us).

    Another notable factor is the rise of private and academic partnership in defense tech. Tatas, Mahindra, IIT-delhi, IISc and other organizations are also working on defense. And comin up with world class products- the secret ultra low frequency communication system of IIT delhi, for instance.

    Even small, inconspicuous projects have spin-offs. Look closely at the sachet the next time you cook the MTR or Kohinoor Ready to eat food, and you will notice that it was developed by DRDO.

    Most projects that fail are either due to lack of funds, lack of political will, change of prevailing wind from Delhi or just the whims and fancies of those in power.

    When the armed forces and centre lack interest in indegenious porjects and drop them like hot cakes in favor of modern foriegn ones, obviously the scientists will lose interest and go to places where their skills are better used and better paid for.

    And quite clearly, we can see the effects of relying too much on foreign equipment- MIG 21 spares, US sanctions, etc etc etc....

    Even under amazing odds, indians can perform. International pressure and isolation did not stop or significantly hinder our nuclear program, nor the defense projects after sanctions were imposed. DRDO scientists created innovative alternate technologies. All we need is to have faith in our brains and labs- and NOT CRITICIZE THEM UNDULY.

    The BrahMos is an amazing missile- the only one of its kind in the world. Something that can make even the US nervous. And its no failure! all its test have been successes- 100%- Unparalleled. Our contribution to it is no small one either. the only reason it's range is 290km is due to the MCTR. there should be no difficulty in increasing the range, especially with India's know-how.

    ...there should be no doubts regarding the need for indigenious defense programs, even if they seem to fail. Give Hope and have faith in our labs and they will make a world-beater in no time.

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    dnt talk stupid
    By blue star on Saturday, May 13, 2006 (EST)
    hey guys,
    i realy respect your views.debate means u can share your point of view that might contribute to nation.debate does not mean u start abusing others or make personal offensive comments.debate should be limited to debate.what some one have a view we should respect it.if one dnt agree to others point of view it does not mean u r right n other is just talking shit.he might be talking what u dnt understand or which is out of reach of ur brain.hahaha
    well as for as babur missile is concerned ,it does nt matters where it comes from.the thingh z Pakistan has got it.either its home made or imported it wont change the fact that Pakistan have this.Pakistan can use it anywhere n anytime.
    as for as targeting cruise missile is concerned it hard to target a cruise missile though its nt impossible.secondly Pakistan's missile system is for successful delievery of nuclear weapons.it has no other purpose.so it does nt matter it has got pinpoint accuracy or not.actually that missile should be able to hit Mombay,New Delhi etc successfuly.so its not hard for a missile to reach a big city n it dont need a pinpoint accuracy.Short range missiles are the best missiles in a war because they are xtremley hard to traced out n destroyed.its nearly impossible to search n destroy short range missiles.US has spent billions of dollars to built up a missile defence shield but that is only successful for long range missiles.a country like USA can not detect and destroy short range cruise missile.
    look guys arms race never ends.if we will be able to develop a system to destroy cruise missbe than Pakistan may introduce a system to avoid detection by that special system.so this race never ends.best way is to built up a confidence among neighbours.respect them and get respected.
    we have lived centuries together so still we can live together.we need money for our poor people not to kill people of Pakistan.if next time we have a war with Pakistan,we wont win that war neither Pakistan will win because both got nuclear weapons n ability to deliever it within minutes.our people need food,jobs,health.spent this money on people.generals always create tensions to make their jobs secured n political leaders do it to win elections.India cant defeat Pakistan with weapons n armies.this is great reality.accept it or not.
    Churchill said"War is too serious to be left on generals"so we should think about people not about generals.

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    Pakistan
    By NV on Thursday, May 25, 2006 (EST)
    Sure, war wont be won by Armies but only love.
    Tell that to the jihadis attacking Indian temples and cities to the fidayeen slaughtering civilians and attacking the indian army in kashmir.
    All this love-brotherhood- Gandhian living is good for the textbooks, what protects any nation are its soldiers and scientists, which in turn allow it to develop an economy to support them in turn.
    Indian history has been full of genocides perpetrated by Islamic invaders to the economic depredation of the Raj, love and brotherhood didnt stop Somnath from being put to the sword.
    Those who dont learn from history, are condemned to repeat it.


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    babur
    By rambo on Thursday, August 24, 2006 (EST)
    NV's comments shows up the bloated egos of DRDO guys. do u know what some people call DRDO? Dekh te Raho Dare Ojayega!pls read times of india article appeared in first two weeks of AUGUST 2006. 439 projects taken up by DRDO worth Rs 16,538 crores are dangling in the air and are ready to crash! What a collossal waste! they take out specs from the best from JANES defence books....propose a project with help of delhi guys ... have some nice foreign trips! ofcourse awards ,promotions...aplenty. ARJUN tank...this is enough to higlight DRDO's inefficiency.ITs time they stop fooling the public and the armed forces. For the past 15 years i have been reading every morning in my news paper" that trishul has been successfully test fired for the umpteenth time"? where is it gentleman? and the same is the case with akash!
    stop taking the armed forces for a roler coaster ride!caste feelings,lingustic feelings,reginal feelings, all kinds of biases,prejudices , u name it ,DRDO guys have it!

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    babur
    By rambo on Friday, August 25, 2006 (EST)
    you are absolutely right.some time in the 90's US war ships launched tomahawks on Ethiopia i think, to destroy some chemical factories on the suspicion that they were manufacturing chemical weapons for terror attacks. US war ships fired tomahawks from karachi harbour ,which travelled thro' baluchistan and afghanistan. some of the tomahawks failed and fallen down near afghanistan border. pakistan promplty collected them and dispatched to china for reverse engineering. But tomahawk is a complex piece, which navigates thro' pictures of the terrain and route sent thro' satellite links and stored images. similarly pak has gifted one F-16 to china to strip and reverse engineer. Though china's J-10 is LAVI based from israel, it must have learnt a lot on the fly by wire technology, APg-67? radar. pakistan is buying 120 such a/c called FC-20 with ELTA radar or phazotran radar"ZHEM chug" from russia or may be grifo from FIAR or chinese own multi mode radar from 14th institute...these are all based on internet and paper news...

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    Reply
    By minky whlae on Wednesday, August 30, 2006 (EST)
    It is all well and good to say india has developed this and that, but if you look high level (major arms products) you have clearly failed. You had and still have problems with the Arjun tank, LCA. Which are supposed to form major components of an army. Not extras! Besides many of the "developments" that you have mentioned where from the former USSR, just produced locally, that does'nt mean development!

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    whats that rancid smell......oh its India!!! Long live the USA!!!!
    By minky whlae on Wednesday, August 30, 2006 (EST)
    all hearsay, don't accept everything you read! you smelly prick!

    Reply to this Comment
     

    RATE THIS COMMENT
    By minky whlae on Wednesday, August 30, 2006 (EST)
    IF YOU HATE INDIA....PLEASE CLICK ON RATING 1,2,3, or 4. IF YOU LOVE INDIA PLEASE CLICK 5

    WHAT A DILEMA....sniff sniff

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    Dekh Te Raho Dare Okayega!
    By rambo on Thursday, August 31, 2006 (EST)
    minky ! i dont know to which country u belong to...its the yankees who trigger the arms race by suppling pakis with F-16 a/c and what not!musharraf got BUGTI brutally killed... pakistan is exporting terrorism! USA looks the other way for all the brutal killings the paki terrorists are doing in kashmir! why cant USA be called independent states of America? they are so possesive about their states. make texas an independent country and similarly all other states. In the name of indegenous development we are depriving our armed forces of the best equipment. DRDO is nothing but a stumbling block, they can neither design and develop weapon sytems nor allow the govt. to import. There can never be a country like India if the yankees and the Pakis allow it to live peacefully!

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    babur
    By fix'em on Saturday, September 16, 2006 (EST)
    With due respect to Mr thakur's analysis of babur cruiese missile I dont think so that Pakistan will ever be able to achieve serial production of the system when 12 odd destroyed tomahawks are no more to provide them with certain items essential and beyond their reach

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    RAMBO
    By NV on Friday, October 20, 2006 (EST)
    Please grow up. Seriously. Using terms like bloated egos and the asinine banter minkey whatever from Pakistan is engaging in, only highlights the fact that you guys dont have arguements and are resorting to namecalling.
    I grew up in an India where a bajaj scooter was passed off as high technology by the beloved private sector, and to see the DRDO try for the moon, or at least do its utmost to achieve what other nations have had the better part of the 2oth century to do, with just a couple of projects in each field- I know their effort, and I know why the delays occur. Problem with all you blokes is that you want your cake and you want it today. India is not the US where you can click your fingers, ready subsystems appear from 2000 competing subsystem providers and you just system integrate and deliver, which you have had four decades to finetune. Appreciate Indias constraints, our limited heavy industry, then talk. Now just because every MNC is hyping India, you suddenly think- "wow, these DRDO people are fools". Great show- without the DRDO and its projects, neither Hyd, nor Bangalore firms would have the kind of experience or manpower they field. IISc has been partly run on the back of defence projects. Spare a thought, use your brains and think why we are better off than Pakistan. Its because we dream, and think big and try to achieve it. Yes, there were folks who said the IITs are a joke for a nation of beggars, they serve as institutes of bodyshopping for the US etc- today, they serve as a magnet to draw MNCs to India. A decade from now- it will be L&T, Mahindra who do a lot of work- but it was DRDO who set the base for what they will achieve. Its sad that folks like you cant appreciate what they have done, but then its a thankless job anyways. I see NDTV commentators drawing s 50K per month talk about lazy DRDO scientists, who at senior scientist level draw a fraction of the above. The hypocrisy is stunning, but this is India, after all.


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    NV u rock man
    By pravinutankar on Sunday, October 22, 2006 (EST)
    I think seeing the number of post in this article which is against Mr Thakur..he is afraid and ashmed to post because he has lost to NV database............hahahaha

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    Dekh te Raho Dare Ojayega NV bhayya
    By rambo on Tuesday, October 24, 2006 (EST)
    NV! I really envy you. Still you have not come out of your paranoia( is it correct sigmund freud sir?). Take the case of AL khalid and Arjun? compare them and study them. pakis have learnt lessons from Arjun programme! They have gone in collaboration with china and ukrain. 60 tonnes Vs 48 tonnes? except DRDO nobody talks positively about arjun, trishul,tejas,and akash! please read news papers. According to times of india report over 400 odd projects worth Rs 16,538 crores in drain man. wake up! stop fooling the armed forces. Give them the best. beg ,barrow , buy or steel. Its a crime to ask soldier to fight a war with out a proper weapon. similarly JF-17 thunder! wake up my dear NV.

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    NV - how can we trust you, work for DRDO and atleast in our eyes feed on tax payers money with no ma
    By tachionic on Wednesday, November 15, 2006 (EST)
    NV,

    People like you will cry loud, by enumerating nuts and bolts as acheivements. My childhood dream was to join DRDO. But now with many friends or their parents inside, I dont regret that I have'nt got in.

    No IITians atleast Btech join DRDO why..?
    Forget it No RECian even..? In 1995-99 DRDO did
    not even come to REC calicut for campus?
    See this country has more intelligent people than u can think off. The topmost cream brains of country goes to IIT, remaining to BITS and RECs. The current DRDO is running with people of far below calibre but much more knowledge though aquired through years and years of slogging. They are not smart like IIT brains.

    Ok, I know you will say about pay-pack..
    With any amount of pay-pack DRDO brain cannot be upgraded to IIT standard. The defence research of a country should be in the hands of best brains in the country. I have talked with a number of IITian friends, who say that not all are worried of money, but why risk the life in a dirty org like DRDO with politics and only politics.

    People like you want to still keep on eating Indias money for no output which enables the country to balance china. India doesnt have much luxury. It is living surrounded by enemies. Either your dirty org match china or get out. There are enough in this country to drive it.
    See pak is in joint venture with china. They will be much above than what DRDO can offer the country. So what India needs is atleast same level of technological advancement in defence as china, not the bables from people like you, that with this pay I made Indra radar, that pinaka etc. Those things china also have, in much better standard, with a lesser pay to its employees. But in china if you dont deliver, may be you may not a have a life at all.

    Industrial espionage should be clearly started by India. If china can do why cant we.

    My recommendations are these.

    USe IB, raw etc to penetrate DRDO.
    Find the best available tallents now
    FInd the good, but like to be idle talents
    Find the useless lazy ones
    FInd the one who uses political plays

    Frame the last category or by any means get them out of the org.
    Using the infiltrated agents, backup all required knowledge.
    Have a base level cleanup of DRDO.

    Then start a new org with less than 300 people
    with the best of DRDO and only top IIT level talents. Let their perks be secret and non-taxable. But highly accountable like NSG, with
    continuous reviews. In NSG if hit-to-kill ratio in firing comes down, you are out.

    Cut the funding of old DRDO. Let them have a natural death in some 20 years.

    It is impossible to completely clean an old organisation, but quite easy to create a new one, with all lessons from old one. Then the new org can be of IIT kind of std.
    And we can put our esteemed defence budget in safe hands. Now we are throwing most of it in Indian ocean.

    NV may jump and cry. But remember, what ever crazy things I have told doesnt matter. If your organisation dont deliver, our soldiers will pay the price in the next not so away war. And after that war, there wont be any DRDO in the current sense.

    Good luck. Anyway I personally will spread to as many as people as possible that DRDO is a white elephant.

    MAy be I am a Traitor of the country. SO BE IT.

    -tachionic

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    Jimmi song
    By Buchakko on Saturday, April 21, 2007 (EST)

    http://bmains.info/youtube/movie.php?movie_id=40762

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    Emotions are a soldier's weakness
    By dgill45083 on Monday, June 04, 2007 (EST)
    It is interesting to read some comments here, 3 posts stick to the subject, and boom we get side tracked.

    Mr. Thankur, it is well known that US made cruise missiles were handed over by Pakistan to the Chinese. And we all know China is A1 in making copies, just ask Bill Gates. Notice that all Pakistani missile tests are never shown or Haft1 and variants when shown are fired off from launchers with no tracking or other types of machinery around to gauge the missile's performance. We will see babur when it emerges from the Paki side, till then are Cruise missiles really a formidable weapon>? Or pilotless fighters the formidable weapons?

    Reply to this Comment
     

    babur
    By bijendr on Tuesday, June 12, 2007 (EST)
    guys i think mr thakur is wrong at many points but at the same time he correct at some places.as in case of lca it is well known fact that it has unexpected delay's due to which we had to order 126 mrca's.and till now it is now where near to inducting in air force.in cse of brahmos,prithvi interceptor they had done a great job and put india a leap ahead of pak as well as china.as far as j17 is concern it is nothing more than a expensive chinese toy bcz even plaaf is not in favour of using chinese engine in j 17 .which is to be used in pakis.so one can easilly guess there quality.(toy of$$ 10 milion is expensive)

    Reply to this Comment
     

    And to think I have to reply to such rubbish...
    By NV on Saturday, June 23, 2007 (EST)
    Replying to emotional kids who use the name "rambo" or "tachionic" is a challenge by itself, especially when they cant spellcheck their rants or even compose their thoughts coherently. Its tachyons btw, again with numbers hardly worth the term and all sorts of misleading commentary. Three of my batchmates, including US returned graduate students are in the DRDO, not to mention many IITians and others.

    If the posters had any brains (not that the posts so far show any, but one may hope!), I never claimed to be from the DRDO. But I do come from a generation which knows the clime in which these programs were launched, the challenges they faced, and their current status. It requires technical education, a degree of humility and interest- as compared to juvenile braggadacio based upon Hollywood monikers, to understand what the DRDO has done and what its strengths and weaknesses are.

    As of today, the Navy, AF and Army all rely upon DRDO developed electronic warfare items, sonars, radars- not to mention many other items. Its not even worth recounting the list to these worthies, since your brain is so addled by what the media writes, considering that the likes of TOI are where you get your information from, its a lost cause even making you lot understand what the DRDO has already delivered to the services.

    Indias nuke deterrent was also developed by the DRDO and DAE, the all too critical explosive lenses were done by the idiots at DRDO whom you geniuses are too far above, may they kiss the feet of such enlightened folk such as you.

    And rambo, educate yourself, the Arjun is 58.5 (not 60 tons) because it is a heavy MBT, not a medium tank- understand what those terms mean! The reason about the lack of positive coverage is because the DRDO cares two hoots about publicity and the media misuses the laissez faire to shill for other interests.

    Tachion, you have no clue or understanding of what high tech armaments India produces. You quote Chinas case approvingly and state industrial espionage as a reason and call DRDO a dirty org. Unfortunately, the one with the dirty mind is you, and with a juvenile understanding of technology to boot. I have worked with PRC people, they have worked hard for whatever they have done. Throwing epithets at them and at DRDO is the hallmark of idiotic internet warriors like you who have no clue of the nuts and bolts of what go into high technology items. And lastly, all your IIT friends who think like you can go and join whatever they wish, after having sponged off India's subsidized education, their sense of duty is to be commended.

    The fact that you state:

    "See this country has more intelligent people than u can think off. The topmost cream brains of country goes to IIT, remaining to BITS and RECs. The current DRDO is running with people of far below calibre but much more knowledge though aquired through years and years of slogging. They are not smart like IIT brains. "

    ..shows the mental level you are operating at. Talk about tunnel vision. As a technology manager, I will gladly take one of those peasant DRDO types with hard won experience than one of your urban elite IIT shock jocks with their inflated view of themselves not to mention their coterie like you. Go out of India, educate yourself and learn, experience matters, raw talent and arrogance mixed with hubris is worth two rupees and a bottle of rotgut, and not even that much.

    "People like you want to still keep on eating Indias money for no output which enables the country to balance china. India doesnt have much luxury. It is living surrounded by enemies. Either your dirty org match china or get out. There are enough in this country to drive it. "

    Typical drivel- chaps like you would not clear any DRDO/ CSIR/ IISc interview to begin with but on the interweb nobody knows who you are so hey you know better than everyone else.

    But off you are to curse the org. Heck, if I were to ask details, you'll be sitting at a BPO mouthing platitudes offering customer service, and to think chaps like you claim to sit in on judgement on organizations which do far more. Eating money. If you were to actually look at DRDO funding, its peanuts compared to the proportion spent on imports year after year.

    "See pak is in joint venture with china. They will be much above than what DRDO can offer the country. So what India needs is atleast same level of technological advancement in defence as china, not the bables from people like you, that with this pay I made Indra radar, that pinaka etc. Those things china also have, in much better standard, with a lesser pay to its employees. But in china if you dont deliver, may be you may not a have a life at all. "

    Total bullshit. Pak is nowhere near Indias overall scientific acumen. India manufactures over a dozen radars, half of its own design- Pak yet to make even one, but never mind, we have you to come up with such ridiculous claims. Second, unlike you, I know PRC people, they get good paygrades and preferential treatment. Get off the pot son, its warping your mind.
    I am aware of what China makes, in some cases its equivalent(infantry weapons), ahead (artillery, rocket artillery), behind (electronic warfare) etc..you on the other hand have no clue of what the breakup is.

    "My recommendations are these.

    USe IB, raw etc to penetrate DRDO.
    Find the best available tallents now
    FInd the good, but like to be idle talents
    Find the useless lazy ones
    FInd the one who uses political plays

    Frame the last category or by any means get them out of the org.
    Using the infiltrated agents, backup all required knowledge.
    Have a base level cleanup of DRDO.

    Then start a new org with less than 300 people
    with the best of DRDO and only top IIT level talents. Let their perks be secret and non-taxable. But highly accountable like NSG, with
    continuous reviews. In NSG if hit-to-kill ratio in firing comes down, you are out. "


    After reading this, I am sure of one thing- you have not worked in any professional organization, have zero contact with the Indian scientific fraternity (all your claims here apart), and lastly operate in the internet warrior mode- that NSG reference made me laugh out loud! Good one son, its been ages since anyone made me laugh, keep it up!



    "Good luck. Anyway I personally will spread to as many as people as possible that DRDO is a white elephant.

    MAy be I am a Traitor of the country. SO BE IT. "

    I couldnt care two bits about your emotional claim of being a traitor, but you most certainly are a complete and utter infant. The combination of the two makes you incompetent, and misguided and in my view, you are no worse than all those jackass jihadis in Kashmir or the similarly brainwashed maoists in telengana. It has been Indias singular blessing since independence to have such noble souls such as you, looks like that has continued!!



    Please do keep it up, scratch your privates, rant against the DRDO, make out with the IITians- it really doesnt matter. The DRDO will do what it must and so shall India, its (thankfully!) in much better hands than the likes of you online rambos!




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    bijendr
    By NV on Sunday, July 22, 2007 (EST)
    Actually the LCA delay did not "cause" the MRCA..the LCA delay caused the MiG-21 Bison upgrade. The IAF is procuring the MRCA to replace (in part) all the MiG-23s that it is phasing out, plus the immediate shortfall in MiG-21s..the FLs/M/MFs are all to go out asap.
    The IAF is classing fighters into three categories: Heavy- MKI, Medium- MiG-27, Jaguar, MiG-29, Mirage, MRCA Light- MiG-21, LCA

    Ultimately, it boils down to costs. Light fighters are cheapest to operate, and we need them to build up the numbers.

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    Mr Thakur..
    By NV on Sunday, July 22, 2007 (EST)
    Some news of recent vintage:
    http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/india-israel-introducing-mr-sam-03461/#more

    Seems that India is creating its own version of the Russian S-3XX series, albeit with Israeli involvement.

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    Reality behind our Indig. Projects (Arjun, LCA, Brahmos)
    By sunil on Sunday, August 26, 2007 (EST)
    I really appreciate Mr. Thakur's article, at least he has got some courage to stripp the hidden faces of our R&D facilities. For Arjun tank, just read following article, u'll get a real picture. One friend of mine had been involved in its mechanical testing, and he said that this tank was just a rubbish, its engines failed after 200 km of continuous running. And what interesting fact he told me that head of the mechanical testing was an Army officer, who had no knolwedge of simple mechanics.
    http://www.rediff.com/news/2000/mar/15drdo.htm

    LCA......another big failure
    http://www.hindu.com/2007/08/15/stories/2007081558470100.htm


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    Pakistan's new cruise missile fired from air
    By sunil on Sunday, August 26, 2007 (EST)
    i learned from bbc news that pakistan has tested a new cruise missile which can be launched from air. What u guys say to this recent testing??? http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/6963768.stm

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