Vijainder K Thakur
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    Are Indian Fighter Pilots better than US Fighter Pilots?
    Posted by on Wednesday, June 23, 2004 (EST)
    The first bilateral dissimilar air combat (DACT) exercise between the U.S. Air Force and the Indian air force in more than 40 years, Cope India 2004, took place at Gawalior, India in Feb this year. Did the IAF pilots out perform the USAF pilots during the exercise.
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    The first bilateral dissimilar air combat (DACT) exercise between the U.S. Air Force and the Indian air force in more than 40 years, Cope India 2004, took place at Gawalior, India in Feb this year. This blog had carried a report on the exercise.

    Reportedly, the exercise found mention in the Senate Appropriations defense subcommittee in March when Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. John Jumper stated that the results of Cope India were "very revealing". He did not elaborate. Earlier, Rep. Duke Cunningham (R-CA) said in a Feb. 26 House Appropriations defense subcommittee hearing that U.S. F-15Cs were defeated more than 90 percent of the time in direct combat exercises against the IAF!

    These are startling assertions, to say the least! Are they true? is the question doing the rounds on Internet forums frequented by Fighter Flying enthusiasts.

    I have no intention of attempting to answer that question. Instead, what I will do is attempt to put it in the right perspective. In doing so, my hope is to make the question irrelevant.

    While the Internet is an excellent source of information, it is not always a reliable source of information. It is always a good idea to be skeptical about anything published on the internet that does not originate on an official website or does not refer to a verifiable source. And by that logic, what I say here should also be treated with due skepticism. For the purpose of this article I will assume that the congressional report being cited on internet forums is indeed authentic.

    A Broad Perspective

    E-3 Senty AWACSThe US armed forces are primarily equipped and trained for intervention around the globe, not for homeland security. It is very difficult for anyone to conceive of a situation where US troops will be asked to defend their homeland. As such, US strategic thinkers appreciate that relying on human motivation to win a conflict in a distant part of the globe is not practical. Consequently, the mindset is to always fight a war from a position of overwhelming material advantage so as to minimize casualties. Material losses are a concern for the US armed forces, but only because they temporarily reduce their material advantage, not because they result in a financial squeeze. Indeed, increased consumption of material assets by the armed forces can invigorate the US economy! However, human losses are a huge concern because they can result in rapid weakening of public support for the intervention. Recent history has seen the US concede defeat to puny Vietnam just because its public was not prepared to accept any further loss of US lives.

    The Indian armed forces are primarily equipped and trained for homeland security and engage the enemy only to keep the enemy at bay. Indian strategic thinkers can, therefore, count on high motivation levels of its troops. The public too is more accepting of high casualty rates under these circumstances. The Kargil conflict was a manifestation of what I am saying. The Indian commanders had the option to choose between human or material assets to win the heights back from the enemy. The fact that they chose the former was foolhardy but illustrative. The US will never commit its troops to battle under similar circumstances.

    For India, material losses are the huge concern. This is so because most of the material assets used by our armed forces originate abroad and are purchased using scarce foreign exchange. High material losses result not just in a tactical paucity but can result in a long term degradation of the country’s ability to wage war and a serious weakening of its economy.

    Cope India 2004 Perspective

    In the context of what we discussed above, it should be clear to us that the US pilots are not primed to engage the enemy on a level playing field. If they did so they would not be assured of a victory. They are primed to engage only when they enjoy an overwhelming superiority. For them, only abject desperation will justify an engagement on a level playing field!

    This is not to suggest that the USAF pilots do not train to fight on a level playing field. They do, and that is why they came to Gawalior.

    A USAF pilot relies on the electronics within his aircraft to tilt the odds in his favor. Some of you may wonder, why just the electronics, why not the better maneuverability of its fighters? The answer is simple. While US fighters are without compare when it comes to the combination of electronics and maneuverability, when it comes to maneuverability alone, they are not always the best! In visual combat a Mig 21 Bis and Mirage 2000 could give a tough time to an F-16 or F-15C. A Mig29 will most likely out maneuver them and a Su-30K or Su-30MKI, with its vectored thrust and super maneuverability, will most certainly chew them up.

    For USAF F-15C pilots, like the ones that participated in Cope Thunder, a typical air defense mission would start of as a long-range patrol under control of an AWACS that is looking deep into enemy territory. The AWACS will pick up an enemy attack much before it crossed the border. It would guide the F-15Cs to an intercept feeding them positional data over telemetry. Around a hundred miles or so from the enemy fighters the F-15Cs would switch on their own individual radars, acquire the enemy aircraft and launch their long-range air-to-air missiles.

    In the rare case where enemy aircraft are able to continue with the attack the F-15Cs would continue for a close in engagement provided they enjoyed a clear cut numerical advantage or were opposed by less maneuverable aircraft. If that is not the case, they would head home and allow other air defense assets to take on the attacking aircraft.

    The Playing Field at Gawalior

    During Cope India 2004 the USAF F-15Cs were tasked with the defense of Gawalior AF Base. The Indian Air Forces aircraft were tasked with attacking Gawalior. Miarage 2000s, Su-30Ks, MiG-29 and MiG-21 Bis escorted the Indian strike force consisting of MiG-27s. For some reason, possibly security concerns raised by the Indians, the F-15Cs operated without an AWACS. That one factor probably leveled the playing field for the Americans

    Forced to rely on Indian ground radars and / or their own airborne radars the F-15Cs must have felt crippled. Their misery was probably compounded by the fact that the attack force enjoyed overwhelming numerical superiority. The F-15C pilots would have been easily overwhelmed by multiple targets detected minutes before they came into visual range.

    Yet another factor against them must have been the fact that the cream of the Indian Air Force mans Mirage, MiG-29 and Su-30 squadrons. These squadrons constitute our most valuable and limited assets. On the other hand the F-15C is the workhorse aircraft in the USAF.

    Conclusion

    I am inclined to believe that the playing field at Gawalior was tilted against the USAF pilots. If the US pilots did end up with adverse kill ratios it should surprise no one, least of all the USAF generals. However, it would present them with a wonderful opportunity to scare the US Congress into releasing additional funds for the F/A-22 Raptor. Priced at 187 million dollar a piece, the F/A-22 Raptor is a dream machine that, with its super maneuverability, stealth and radar jamming ability would have easily ruled the sky even in the playing field at Gawalior.

    USAF pilots do not usually train to fight enemy pilots. Instead, they train to shoot them down much before the enemy aircraft can come in close enough to fight with them. Given the right circumstances USAF pilots do their jobs very well! So the question whether Indian fighter pilots are better than USAF fighter pilots is moot. They probably are if they get to fight them!. Like they did at Gawalior. But that was an exercise. In actual combat, however, they will probably be taken out long before they get to engage the USAF pilots.

    Even if Indian pilots are better than USAF pilots, the USAF is better than the IAF. Indeed, the USAF could rule the Indian skies any time it chose to.

    Avaiation Week and Space Technology carried an article on Cope India 2004 in its Oct 18, 2004 Issue. You can browse through the article at http://www.nxtbook.com/fx/books/raytheon/aviationweek-oct04/ The following are extracts of the articles.





    PS I report on Defence matters because India spends nearly 20% of its budget on Defence. Two of Inda's neighbors openly covet her territory and don't foresake the use of violence to get it. Under the circumstances I think it is imperative that all Indians follow matters of defence closely. Our history, distant and recent, is replete with invasions that we invited upon ourselves by not being adequately prepared.

    If you would like to contribute a picture or article to this blog I will be delighted to hear from you.


    Average Rating:

    Comments:

    Very Informative and Objective
    By ? on Sunday, June 27, 2004 (EST)
    Your take on the situation seemed very informative and objective.  In truth, if you do not train primarily for close combat, but for use of long range attacks, then you will be woefully unequipped for an exercise where those long range attacks are limited.  Your insight into the reasons behind the hobbling of the US pilots was also very plausible.

    Note:  This control deletes two characters with a backspace instead of one, making typing this quite interesting to say the least.

    Charles (wraith808@hotmail.com)

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    Malfunctioning Control
    By vkthakur on Sunday, June 27, 2004 (EST)
    Thanks for the feed back Charles. I have disabled HTML while I figure out what is happening.

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    Are IAF pilots better
    By ? on Saturday, July 03, 2004 (EST)
    Kuku, I found your article on the subject very incisive and could not but agree with most of your assessments.

    Nevertheless the thesis was "Are IAF Pilots superior to USAF pilots". To truthfully answer the question on has to extrapolate the results to a 'even playing field' senario. Each being given similar equipment and battle field environment.
    Hypothetical?, yes. But essential if a meaningful comparison were to be drawn. The reports presented by the DoD in the US could perhaps have been with a view to garner some further procurements. But here we are talking of basic Air Combat skills. Even if one were to discount ulterior motives of the report, 90% is a high figure. I have always belived that the soldier from a country like India, or indeed countries of the genre is more commited and hence more professional and indeed, more intent on doing better than the adversory. No matter what the battlefield environment offers.

    I remember my vintage Mystere IVA squadron in the 1971 conflict with Pakistan doing night missions with torches and no cockpit lighting whatsoever.
    And operating off air strips lit by stringed out 100 watt bulbs. With experiences/training like that one does learn to fly by the seat of ones pants.

    ... Kuku, love to all of you.

    Tony

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    A news clipping on Cope India 2004
    By vkthakur on Monday, July 05, 2004 (EST)
    The US Air Force got a "wake-up call" in air-to-air training exercises with India earlier this year that showed the USA can no longer take air superiority for granted in a conflict.

    WASHINGTON — June 23, 2004 A study of the "Cope India" air exercise, conducted by the US and Indian air forces in Gwalior, India last February, is secret, said General Hal Hornburg, head of the air force´s Air Combat Command.

    "But we have to learn a lot of things from that," he told defense reporters here. "We have to learn if we want air superiority it doesn´t come cheap and it´s not automatic."

    The Russian-made SU-30s are reported to have bested the F-15s in a majority of their engagements, much to the surprise of the organizers.

    It was the first time the two top-of-the-line US and Russian-made fighters have flown against each other in an exercise, an air force spokeswoman said.

    It pitted F-15Cs from the air force´s 3rd Wing out of Elmendorf Air Force Base in Alaska against a variety of Indian fighters, not just the SU-30s. They included Russian-built MiG-21s, MiG-29s and French-made Mirage 2000s.

    Although the US fighters flew with certain restrictions that handicapped their effectiveness, the performance of the Indian fighters exceeded expectations.

    "In general, we may have learned some things that suggest we may not be as far ahead of the rest of the world as we once thought we were," Hornburg said.

    He said the results of the exercise showed the need for the F/A-22 Raptor and the Joint Strike Fighter (JSF). Both aircraft are stealthier than the F-15, but the F/A-18 also has greater range and speed than the air force´s existing fighters.

    The air force has been battling the perception that the costly new fighters are a luxury at a time when the United States has dominance in the air.

    "I thought it was a wake-up call for some things that we´ve been talking about before, and it provided validation," Hornburg said.

    The trade journal Aviation Week and Space Technology reported last month that the exercises showed the SU-30s had a clear advantage over the F-15C in a long-range fight.

    The US and Indian aircraft were seeing each other at the same time with their radars but the SU-30 pilots were able to simulate-fire their Russian-made AA-10 "fire-and-forget" Alamo missiles first, the weekly said.

    Experts say the SU-30 has a more advanced radar than the F-15C.

    Hornburg said the F-15Cs that took part in "Cope India" were not equipped with the latest US active electronically scanned array radar.

    "We are going to put new radars, as much as we can afford, in the F-16s and the F-15Es, and my prediction is we will have to do for the F-15C as well in due course," the general said.

    The exercise appears to hold lessons for the air force in east Asia, where China is acquiring SU-27 and SU-30 fighters and AA-12 air-to-air missiles.

    "I see air forces across the spectrum and across the world becoming better and better as each year passes," Hornburg said.

    "China is very formidable. It is a huge, collossal nation, and they are very technologically adept. Do I worry about the Chinese? I would say I worry about anyone who could be a possible threat, to include them and many others," he said.

    Source: (AFP)

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    Are Indian pilots better that their USAF counterparts ?
    By thomas on Thursday, August 19, 2004 (EST)
    Dear Mr. Thakur,

    I read with much interest your views on the IAF pilots performance during Operation Cope Thunder.Personally I think you have analysed it in a very objective manner and have kept away the "patriotic" aspect that may probably have caused a bias in judgement.

    When a leading newspaper came out with this article I was asked this same question by a few members of the "Non Flying" population.I think the "patriotic" aspect got the better of them and they felt that we could win any war under any circumstance - well why not look at India in the IT industry we are simply the best and we are much better than the Americans - I really didn't want to comment at that point in time as I really didn't have the facts and figures.

    My personal view is that by being of a particular racial origin , one does not necessarily have to be a great pilot.It is the training and the individual aptitude that make one a good pilot.Despite our strong performance in the concerned exercise , we need to ask ourselves , what would it be like in a real war ? What would it be like to go into combat with a country which has far superior technology although limited in numbers ? It may be prudent for our strategic thinkers / planners to look beyond Pakistan and Southern China as areas of combat and possible threats and plan accordingly.

    As for many people out there who think that our pilots are simply the best - along with the IT chaps - it would be a good idea to watch the aerobatic displays of the Blue Angels , Thunderbirds , Red Arrows , Anatoly Kvotchur , Viktor Pugachev and the likes.It doesn't really leave much to the imagination.

    Cheers
    Thomas.

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    Well Said!
    By vkthakur on Thursday, August 19, 2004 (EST)
    Thomas,

    Thanks for your comments! I will look forward to your views in the future to.

    I agree with you when you make your point that there are exceptionally skilled pilots all over the world, not just in India. Indeed there can be little doubt that there are more exceptionally skilled pilots in the US than in India.

    The Indian Air Force trained with the RAF in the late 70s, when we bought the Jaguars, and learnt a lot from them. Similarly, I think we have a lot to learn from the USAF.

    I recently visited the US Air Force museum in Dayton, Ohio. They screen a film in the iMAX theatre there called - The Magic of Flight. It is about the Blue Angels and how they train and perform. The 45 mins film is not just thrilling; it is also an eye opener.

    The USAF spends a lot of money in training and equipping the Blue Angels, a lot more than the IAF does in training and equipping the Surya Kirans. Clearly, it would be fool hardy to believe the Surya Kiran pilots have the same skill levels as the Blue Angel pilots. They don't. They could, if they had similar equipment and budgets. But they don't have similar equipment and budgets. So they are not equally skilled.

    I think our mainline press tends to be facetious and rather ill informed when it comes to defense matters. It is strange how it overlooks the lack luster performance of the IAF during Op Vijay while blowing the trumpets for Cope Thunder 2004.

    Vijainder

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    a qeustion
    By shantanu on Monday, August 30, 2004 (EST)
    hi ,
    I begin by saying that your analysis is very insightful and critical.
    However I do want to know one thing. Since USAF relies heavily on AWACS and the information they gather about enemy territory , What would happen if someone were to attack AWACS aircraft and take them down or cripple them in a real war scenario.
    I remember russia downing a U2 spy plane long back and China downing a E3sentry spy plane just 3-4 years back.
    So , lets just assume that USAF and IAF were pitted against each other in a real war case and if India were to take out AWACS . How would USAF adjust and fight the war withought the assistance of AWACS ?

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    Defending an AWAC
    By vkthakur on Monday, August 30, 2004 (EST)
    Shantanu thank you for your participation and post.

    I have never flown with an AWACS and am not well versed with the tactics employed while deploying an AWACS. However, the following facts make be believe that to attack and take out an AWACS is an extremely difficult proposition.

    1. An AWACS is always deployed in skies where air superiority has already been established.
    2. An AWACS like the E-3 Sentry can detect low flying aircraft more than 250 miles away. Aircraft flying at medium and high altitudes can be detected at much longer range. Even if the AWACS was stationary it would take enemy fighters at least 20 - 25 mins to reach attacking range.
    3. The E-3 Sentry is a modified Boeing 707/320 commercial airframe with a rotating radar dome. At high altitudes, despite its rotating radar dome, it would be capable of speeds in excess of 500 mph. In other words an AWACS could flee the area at over 500 mph, just a little slower than the fighters attacking it.
    4. An AWAC is packed with jammers and other EW equipment. Because of the greater power supply available in the body of a commercial jet the jammers within an AWACs are very powerful. It is extremely unlikely that attacking fighters could use their radars effectively.
    5. An AWACS is always accompanied by long range fighters and in flight refueling aircraft. It can guide its fighters quickly and precisely to any emerging threat.
    6. The E-3 can fly a mission profile for more than 8 hours without refueling. Its range and on-station time can be increased through inflight refueling.
    7. An AWACS is equipped with last ditch defenses such as chaff and flares.

    On a battlefield, if you can see the threat before the threat sees you, it is unlikely it will get you. The AWACs can out see the enemy by literally hundreds of miles!

    Even the most determined attack will succeed only in chasing an AWACS away!

    The real threat to an AWACS can come from long range missile such as the Russian S-300 or the more modern S-400. These missile systems have long ranges and very high flight speeds. But then, before deploying the AWACS you would take these missile systems out from your area of operation.

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    COPE INDIA
    By pps555 on Sunday, October 31, 2004 (EST)
    Hi
    I found your article about 'Cope India' to be very objective and informative. Being very much interested in aviation and defence related issues, I think that your outlook is refreshing and you have done some wonderful work on your blog. I hope we can have more people, who can reason and think in this manner, amongst our defence policy planners.
    I did found some information on Cope India in the discussion forum of www.airliners.net, a website with some very authentic and interesting information.
    I also fully agree with your view that more and more of our citizens should be aware about defence matters and spending.

    Regards
    PPS

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    IAF Pilots' Dense Cap
    By Shankar on Friday, November 26, 2004 (EST)
    Dear Mr Thakur:

    I do appreciate your Post Script about the need for Indians to be more interested in Indian Defense issues. I also enjoyed your incisive analysis of IAF pilots' performance in Cope India.

    Besting USAF without its AWAC support while IAF maintains a numerical superiority of 3 to 1 does not seem to be an even fight in matching IAF with USAF. However ,does it simulate India's defence needs Vs Pakistan who do not have AWACs ?

    In addition where does IAF stand with regards to China's Airforce? By obtaining AWAC via Israel in 2008 is the airspace advantage of US or China neutralized VS USAF or China AF?

    Thanks much for your response.

    Shanka

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    Re: IAF Pilots' Dense Cap
    By vkthakur on Sunday, November 28, 2004 (EST)
    Shankar you are right. There can be little doubt that Cope India 2004 was very helpful in training the IAF to better fight the PAF.

    There is always a lot to learn for fighter pilots during such exercises - not just in terms of aircraft maneuvering and tactics but even pilot mindsets.

    For example, the USAF is an expeditionary force not a defensive one. It has an enviable track record to boot - No US troop has been fired upon by an enemy aircraft since 1951! This is despite the fact that US troops have engaged enemy forces practically all over the world. It requires a clear vision, good equipment, training and an offensive mindset to achieve that kind of a track record.

    I for one am hoping that some of that clarity of vision and offensive mindset rubs off on the IAF top brass, because while we may have the equipment and training to best the PAF the lack of an offensive mindset has been a problem.

    Your second question too is an interesting one.

    The US is not our enemy and therefore too even think, let alone plan and equip, to engage it is quixotic. I will leave it at that.

    China, however is an adversary and the acquisition of the AWACs will help the IAF in engaging the Chinese Air Force.

    Considering that the only means that India currently has to enforce its Minimum Credible Nuclear Deterrence doctrine against the Chinese nuclear threat is the IAF I think the AWACs are critical to our defense needs.

    These aircraft have an important peace time role too – that of monitoring enemy airspace. I hope the IAF and defense leadership in the government employ our AWACs to aggressively monitor Chinese as well as Pakistani air space and thereby discern and confront an emerging threat.

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    IAF vs USAF
    By stmafm on Thursday, December 09, 2004 (EST)
    Dear Sir,
    I recently came across this blog on the web and I read with deep fascination your article on the relative merits of the IAF vs USAF pilots. It was informative, objective and well written and I enjoyed it immensely.
    As background info, I must point out that my father served for 22 years as an officer in the IN and consequently, I am very interested in all matters pertaining to the Indian Military.
    Regarding your article about the strengths of the pilots, I have one comment to make. It is perhaps true when you assert that the USAF mainly teaches its pilots to primarily attack BVR targets with the aid of AWACS, but is it also not true that they do have regular ACM excercises and schools that teach the nuts and bolts to their pilots ? For example, top gun and red flag. I am sure that they do try to din into their heads the lessons learnt in Vietnam.
    Secondly, regarding your comment about the F-15C being the workhorse of the USAF, while the Mirage, Mig and Su pilots that we fielded were the cream of the IAF. This again is very true, but I am sure that the visiting pilots trained extremely hard to practice the scenario that they would be facing in Gwalior. It isn't as if they came here and were told that XYZ would be their mission, and that they wouldn't have any AWACS. I am sure they prepared for it.
    Any comments on your part would be greatly appreciated. Once again, I commend you on an exceptional and honest website.

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    Re: IAF vs USAF
    By vkthakur on Thursday, December 09, 2004 (EST)
    Gerald,

    Thank you for your encouraging words.

    You are right on both counts – the USAF does indeed train for close combat and its pilots must have been well prepared for Cope India 2004.

    However, the USAF is a very large force literally stretched across the globe. It routinely participates in large exercises with other allied and friendly forces. The USAF would view an exercise like Cope India as routine. Not so with the IAF, which is only now beginning to open up. For it Cope India 2004 was a big deal. During the exercise, at Gawalior it must have felt as much like a TACDE reunion an important exercise. The cream of the IAF was there.

    It is interesting what the results of the exercise seem to have spurred the induction of the F-22 Raptor a stealthy BVR air superiority fighter into the USAF. The Raptor is designed to shoot an enemy aircraft out of the sky even before its radar, let alone pilot, see it. The Raptor’s super maneuverability for close combat is secondary; at best it may match that of Su-30MKI but would still fall short of the Berkut which the Russians want to co-develop with India.

    While pilot skills and super maneuverability are important they can be easily negated with weapon systems. Were the USAF to supply the PAF the latest F-16s with the latest electronics and missiles the apparent superiority of IAF pilots and Su-30MKI would quickly melt away.

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    discussion
    By stmafm on Friday, December 10, 2004 (EST)
    Vijainder,
    I'm sure the IAF probably prepared extremely well for Cope India '04, and as you said, it is a routine matter for the USAF to participate in excercises with other countries; not so for India.
    Another factor (that you also mentioned in your article) is the numerical superiority of the IAF pilots in the scenarios that they USAF faced. Still, I think it is heartening that the IAF seemed to acquit themselves well.
    Regarding the berkut, I am not certain as to its capabilities. Sure, the FSW and all that is rather neat, but if you examine the fuselage and engines closely, the entire nose and cockpit seems to be that of a Su-27/30/35 and so too the rear half (the afterburners for the Lyulkas and the sting in the tail).
    In matters of agility, the berkut would probably be second to none. Regarding stealth and avionics however, at least to my untrained observation, there seems to be some doubt about its prowess.
    I am curious to learn about your views on the "Stealth Mig" project. The Mikoyan-Gureyvich company did develop a supercruise stealth fighter sometime in the 90s and at least one prototype was built. It had a bubble canopy, chin intakes (surprisingly for the MIG series) and was claimed to have exceptional handling and "plasma stealth technology". I've seen photos of this thing, it is called the Mig 1.42 (not completely sure of the name here, but it isn't the standard nomenclature). However, with external hardpoints and no obviously stealthy features, I wonder how it would/will fare.
    The project was abandoned because of lack of funding. The Soviet Union was collapsing and the prototype just sat in a hangar for a few years. I wonder what its fate will be. I don't even know if it ever flew.

    thanks,

    g

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    Berkut, MiG 1.42 and PAK-FA
    By vkthakur on Saturday, December 11, 2004 (EST)
    Gerald,

    The aircraft that the Russians are looking to co-produce with India is infact the Sukhoi PAK-FA a derivate of the Berkut and MiG 1.42. The intent is to combine the stealth and supercruise features of MiG 1.42 with the supermanoeuvrability of the Berkut.

    The Deccan Herald of 03 Dec 2004 (Ref: http://deccanherald.com/deccanherald/dec032004/n11.asp) reported that an agreement between India and Russia for joint development of PAK-FA was entered during Russian Defense Minsiter Sergie Ivanov's meeting with Indian Defense Minister Pranab Mukherjee.

    Going by the wording used by the minister and quoted in the above report I don't thinks it is a done deal as yet.

    An article at GlobalSecurity.org (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/pak-fa.htm) summarizes the PAK-FA project.

    The Mig 1.42 did indeed fly (Ref : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MiG35)

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    IAF vs. USAF
    By stmafm on Thursday, January 13, 2005 (EST)
    Vijainder,
    Read the article with great interest. It is quite instructive to see the USAF claim that the Indian pilots were NOT "TOP GUNS", but a mixture of experienced and rookie pilots. It is possible that the article was intended to scare the US govt into funding the RAPTOR and the JSF.
    Regarding the numerical superiority that the IAF planes enjoyed, from what I understand. in all cases the USAF was defending a target against an opposing (bombarding) force. Thus the mix of 4-12 Indian aircraft that the F-15s faced were probably a mixture of dedicated ground attack and escorting fighters.
    With this in mind, is it fair to say that in a purely air-air role, the USAF faced equal odds ? What I mean is that the attack aircraft probably didn't participate in either illuminating targets with their radar nor did they simulate ACM and/or missile firing.
    I would be interested to hear your views on this matter.
    Also, since you mentioned that your brother was in the MCF, do you think that you could write something about their capabilities and training vis-a-vis similar forces in the world, for example, the US Navy Seals and the UK SBS ?
    Thank you very much.
    -g

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    iaf vs usaf
    By skywalker on Sunday, February 06, 2005 (EST)
    we have a complex where we like to shout at the top of our voices when we like to prove some thing to the advanced nations of the world. its really the hang up of the subjugation thru the years. go overboard to tell how great we are. instead of a quite demeanour and work on the job to do better we make fools of ourselves. the usaf wins aerial battles thru ew platforms and network centric warfare. the pilot and the aircraft are just a cog in the wheel albeit an imp one. so we should work on that aspect to win convincing wars and not thump our chest on minor tactical wins. the silly loud marriage processions etc are all our hallmarks of making lot of noise but in actuality be extremely mediocre

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    iaf vs usaf
    By skywalker on Sunday, February 06, 2005 (EST)
    yu hit the nail on the head. read all yu usaf pilots, the point about iaf superior numbers is all hogwash. guys who understand the game laugh at the reason given of largers numbers with iaf. they just flew as targets. the real fight took place between the SU and the F-15. and the results were quite evident. its pure mental alacrity and analysis boysssss.

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    IAf
    By tisson on Sunday, February 27, 2005 (EST)
    I firimly belive that we should have atleast 55-60 sqn's out of which 75% should be su 30MKI's and latest MIG 29's with avonics and radar of su 30MKI kind. We should atleast have 6 AWACS with us. This i mean we should have with us right now 2010 we should have a different kind of planes. The air defence missiles as far i know are of obslute kind.

    I know this will put a lot of constrain on the economy. But i would like indian forces should be modern and effective so that onone should bully us. I think we should accept collabration on project 701 from russia.

    I'am terribly disappointed with the way our defences forces spend their money and time taken to implement them.

    I don't have much insight to this . But as a layman this is what i feel should we go for war with us we should be able to give a fight even if it is tomorrow not in 2050.

    Thankyou
    Tisson

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    The best pilots?
    By rahulgera on Thursday, April 07, 2005 (EST)
    I am amazed at chest thumping Indians who call for the entire fleet to be modernised and talk about air supiriority. The fact of the matter is no country ever bought itself the "best" air force. R & D is the only way wars can be won in this day and age(not that I think was is any longer a option but that is for another forum). India from my understanding is just about to entre the big league as far as R & D goes and the steps taken hence forth are the ones which will count. I would really appreciate if some one in the know could shed a little light on the actual research going on, after all it must pay off sometime too have so many engineers around .

    P.S. I know that it is a little niave to expect "top secret" R & D to show up on a blog but it would nice to speculate.

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    Are US Fighters the only ones capable of long range attacks??
    By raul00 on Tuesday, May 03, 2005 (EST)
    Well the true is that the Su-27 is away better than any US aircraft, and please investigate yourself about its capabilities...

    Why? Well is simple, because that airplane was built with just one purppose, take down any F-15/18 airplane. And it's still improving.

    But don't Trust me, investigate yourself.

    http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/su27/

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    exocet missle
    By Dale on Thursday, May 05, 2005 (EST)
    I don't understand

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    I don't understand
    By Dale on Thursday, May 05, 2005 (EST)
    "On a battlefield, if you can see the threat before the threat sees you, it is unlikely it will get you. The AWACs can out see the enemy by literally hundreds of miles! ""

    Back in the 1980's an Argentine aircraft lets go of a French made AM-39 Exocet missile that cruised 2.5 meters off the ocean surface until locking onto the British made HMS Sheffield and destroyed it. I heard maybe ten years ago that Russia was working on a missile to take out aircraft carriers. Why is it inconceivable for people to understand how easy it would be for China with its manufacturing capability, (Russia’s closest ally and a manufacturer of the SU-30) to mass-produce thousands of missiles with similar technological advances? Missiles shot from hundreds of hidden bunkers could fly hundreds of miles before locking on with combination of detectors including laser imaging, heat seekers or a combination of what ever new technologies Russia has to bust US defenses. I think this is the real threat of the hear and now,(smart missiles). So much for joint strike fighters or AWACS when even the aircraft carrier is not able to approach its adversary.
    I’m just a carpenter but I don’t understand how people overlook something like this???

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    Mig 29 and Su-27 Already in service
    By raul00 on Thursday, May 05, 2005 (EST)
    The MiG-29 was designed as a replacement for the MiG-21, MiG-23, Su-15 and Su-17 fighters. While the overall appearance is similar to that of the American F/A-18 Hornet, the MiG-29 incorporates much larger and deeper leading-edge root extensions (LERXs) allowing good maneuverability at high angles of attack. A series of auxiliary intakes are mounted on the upper surface of the LERXs allowing the engines to draw in air when the two main inlets are closed. These fatures are used during ground taxiing to prevent debris from being sucked into the engines.

    The large nose houses a single-seat cockpit for the pilot as well as a large pulse-Doppler look-down/shoot-down radar, laser rangefinder, infrared seeker/tracker system, and a helmet-mounted target-designation system. Though initial production models were not equipped with a fly-by-wire control system, the Fulcrum has shown exceptional agility earning the aircraft great admiration in the West.

    Lock On No. 19 : Mikoyan MIG 29 A/C Fulcrum The MiG-29S model was upgraded with new avionics moved to the upper part of an enlarged fuselage thereby allowing greater fuel capacity. One of the most advanced variants is the MiG-29M which includes a fly-by-wire control system and a more advanced HUD and some glass-cockpit displays. This model also disposes of the auxiliary engine intakes on the earlier models to make room for additional fuel, short range being the primary disadvantage of initial variants.

    The Soviet Navy also considered deploying the Fulcrum aboard its new Kuznetsov class aircraft carriers, and a navalized MiG-29K was developed and tested. However, the Su-33 was eventually chosen instead, though the decision is academic now that the Russian carriers have been laid-up for lack of funds.

    SU-27
    Advanced Frontline Fighter Programme

    A team of developers from the Kulon Machine-Building Plant headed by Pavel Osipovich Sukhoi initiated in 1969 the development of an advanced new-generation fighter for the Soviet Air Force and Air Defence Forces' aviation. By the mid-seventies, a general concept of the new fighter was formulated in co-operation with a number of science and research institutions. This concept provided for a high-manoeuvrability long-range fighter with a powerful weapons system and a perfect sighting/navigation system that would allow the pilot to participate efficiently in both long-range missile exchange and dogfight. The basic performances of the new fighter were to be of top class globally while a number of characteristics was to exceed those of its American F-15 counterpart the American leadership was reasonably vesting its high hopes in. The design bureau was planning to introduce a number of major innovations and solutions into the design of the new fighter designated T-10.

    In 1970, the Sukhoi design bureau developed the first version of the fighter airframe incorporating key features of the integrated aerodynamic configuration. The aircraft was to have a lifting body featuring a smooth coupling of the wing and fuselage, two turbojet engines located in isolated belly-mounted engine nacelles and two vertical stabilisers. Such an integrated design allowed a significant improvement of the fighter's aerodynamics and provided for a more spacious interior to accommodate fuel tanks and various equipment. For the fighter to achieve intended flight performances within a wide range of altitudes and speeds, the new fighter's wing had ogyval shape and a leading edge extension. According to the developers, the leading edge extension was supposed to ensure required high-lift characteristics during the aerodynamic focus shifting at supersonic speeds and generate vortice increasing wing, tail unit and control surface efficiency. At the same time, Sukhoi was engaged in developing a traditional non-integrated version of the same fighter powered by two adjacent engines, which were located in the fuselage's aft part, and fitted with side-mounted air intakes and two vertical stabilisers. In 1972, both versions were submitted to the Air Force board for examination and consideration. The board was to assess proposals submitted by three aircraft design bureaux (Sukhoi, Mikoyan and Yakovlev) regarding development of an advanced tactical fighter slated for entering the service with the Soviet Air Force in the early eighties.

    As a result of thorough evaluation and assessment of all versions submitted for consideration, the proposals presented by Sukhoi and Mikoyan were approved by the board for further development. The Su-27 (T-10) programme was to be developed into a heavy multirole advanced tactical fighter, while the MiG-29 programme was to produce a series-built light advanced tactical fighter. Among the major combat objectives the both fighters were to meet, there was the dogfight and medium-range aerial combat capability, interception of aerial targets in the front and rear hemispheres both against the sky and ground as well as the secondary task of ground target destruction. The Su-27, which had a better fuel endurance, more weapons load and more sophisticated navigation, self-defence and communication systems, was intended to operate independently within an air group deep behind the enemy lines at an operational-tactical range of up to 250-300 km, while a lighter and cheaper MiG-29 would operate only at ranges of up to 100-150 km into the enemy-held territory. The Su-27's weapons control system was expected to ensure successful countering the F-15 fighter, the most capable fighter of that time available to the potential opponent, as well as successful engagement when outnumbered by less capable but numerous fighters (for instance, YF-17, YF-16 and J-6). Besides, the Su-27 fighter was intended for entering the service with the Soviet Air Defence Forces after its appropriate reequipping and rearmament.

    And About the F-22
    there are comming soon the SU-47 wich is also STEALTH

    Also check the su-37 and the mig-31

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    Poorly written article
    By Vivek on Friday, May 20, 2005 (EST)
    Mr. Thakur,

    Did you really fly with the IAF? All your articles are very harsh on India's successes. You cannot accept IAF's good performances against USAF. Also, whay are you so much against the LCA?

    From your posts it is quite hard to believe that you would have ever flown for India. Granted that the LCA has had delays but to say that it has a 20 yr lead time is pathetic!! Go check up your facts again. The LCA has completed 400 flights and has several great features as NV has already mentioned.

    If you are a rational personal, then you must review your analysis and see if you are wrong in some of it. I would recommend you to read NV's posts thoroughly and try and understand the LCA program.

    How has the LCA become obsolete?? Your take on the LCA vs FC1 is laughable!! The FC-1 has no avionics yet nor any radar that it can use!!

    Can you tell us how is it that the Su-30 MKI is considered the best aircraft in the world better than the Chinese Su-30 MKMs even?? Learn to appreciate your fellow countrymen and your country some more. There have been mistakes in the past but are there none committed in the US/Britain?? Read about some of the recent flap of British mistakes in Helicopter purchases.

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    Another perspective
    By todd on Friday, May 27, 2005 (EST)
    I have read a lot of opinions and some heated nationalistic pride, but may I suggest another perspective. I want to laud the author on a very objective article and it was insightful, but the one thing you failed to catch is the something only a member of the American Military would realize. First I will be candid, and this will turn the narrow minded from hearing my intent, but I am American and served a long career in the US Military. I was in the Army and not a pilot, if that helps but after 15 years with the US Military I Know why we train and why we train with foreign forces throughout the world. I know everyone is infatuated with the use of “superpower” but we don’t use that term to refer to ourselves. We train with foreign troops to train, not to show how superior we are in combat. Our Generals want to see “Training Value” from the training, both Foreign and Domestic. What training value would U.S. pilots get if we used our actual method of warfare and took out every enemy aircraft before they engaged our pilots. The scenario occurred exactly as it was intended. To teach our Pilots that they can’t always rely on our superior technologies to give us the edge and they may just have to fight it out. Also to see how our pilots react to a situation they are not familiar to and how they handle it. I fought in several U.S. conflicts and war is hell, and complete chaos. Rarely does it go according to plan, good training safely identifies problem before they occur in Combat. Because in combat people die. I know for sure that the Indian Airforce wouldn’t have gotten reciprocal training value if we attacked using the techniques you have seen in the last conflicts. So I think it worked out splendidly and we both got good training out of it.
    And there was as the Asians say “Loss of Face”

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    Sorry meant to Say "NO" loss of face
    By todd on Friday, May 27, 2005 (EST)
    Sorry meant to Say "NO" loss of face

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    Just send Israel
    By Sarge on Tuesday, June 28, 2005 (EST)
    Better then both -
    The Israeli Air Force is considered the strongest air force in the Middle East, and one of the best and most sophisticated in the world. Many of its electronics and weapons systems are developed and built in Israel by Israeli Military Industries and Israeli Aircraft Industries. However, the greatest strength of the IAF is the skill of its pilots. Israeli combat pilots are considered the best in the world, and hold a large number of shoot-down records. It is rumored that American pilots receive training from their Israeli counterparts as part of their training curriculum.

    The following is a report that reveals some of the skills of the IAF pilots:

    Sep. 22, 2003 | THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

    "Israeli air force pilots handily beat their German counterparts in "dogfights" in the first ever air force exercise between the two countries, an Israeli military official said Monday.

    The Israeli F-15 pilots, aided by special technology that Israel does not share or sell to other countries, beat the Germans by more than 100 "hits," said the official, who spoke on condition of anonymity. In the past, Israel has beaten American air force pilots by similar margins, the officials added.

    Israel purchases U.S. warplanes without battle technology, installing its own locally made systems into the aircraft.

    The exercise was conducted over the past two weeks in the skies of Sardinia in Italy."

    According to the IAF website:

    687 enemy airplanes have been shot down in dogfights since Israel`s birth. Only 23 Israeli planes have been shot down by enemy planes since 1948 - a statistic which puts the dogfight victory ratio between Israel and its Arab neighbors at a whopping 30:1.

    The IAF is holding world records at the amounts of enemy's warplanes shoot-downs, air combats, special operations, and air to ground operations at the jet era.

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    To Todd
    By stmafm on Friday, July 29, 2005 (EST)
    Todd,
    What you say is certainly true. There was fortunately (no) loss of face for the USAF. After all, to have their own commanders and congressional representatives (Duke Cunningham was the first and only USN "ACE" during vietnam, with 5 kills) say that they were 'surprised' at the sophistication of opposition ACM training and the inadequecy of their own skills was not too big a blow when you consider how much more terrible it could have been...
    Of course, one expects that a technologically advanced and financially flush superpower would certainly NOT try its best against a third world country that had not trained with foreign air forces for over forty years, wouldn't one ? Maybe they were just taking it easy and treating it as nice vacation to the Taj. They certainly got some good shots of that magnificent monument(damn, those MIG-21s were agile. But at least the Taj in the moonlight was standing still).
    What say, Todd ?

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    Are Indian Fighter Pilots better than US Fighter Pilots?
    By Red on Friday, October 28, 2005 (EST)
    Had to come know about this when it was making rounds in the IAF circles, its good to hear and get other perspectives. The articles and the comments give you thinks to think about. We cant compare USAF to IAF yet, maybe we would be able to do it in the next 30-40yrs. I say this only because of the vast resources and technology US has and we don’t. But I believe the Indian Armed Forces in general are more committed, as we fight for a cause we can relate too.
    There was a comment that the Blue Angles can’t be compared with the Surya Kirans, to a certain extent it’s true as one fly F-16 and the other Kiran. I have seen both of them performing and I can say this I found the Surya Kirans far better, they did a far better job with a plane which can’t be compared with F-16. The Surya Kiran’s performance was far better they were doing stunts and maneuvers which took the Kiran to there limits. The Blue Angles show was hyped up as all American things are and it proved to be a damp squib.

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    Good Article - and India's Pilots ARE Good
    By Joe Katzman on Tuesday, December 13, 2005 (EST)
    Hi folks. Vijainder is quite right about the circumstances of Cope India. This doesn't mean that India's pilots are undeserving of the credit they have justly earned for their performance.

    I'll note that Cope India was more of a rediscovery. Bavk in the 1980s, US exercises like TACEVAL and ACEVAL showed that when you put F-5s (which the USAF wouldn't take, they only made them for export or for training squadrons) up against F-15s at 4:1 ratios or more, the combat kill ratios became about 1:1. Obviously that was a scary revelation considering Soviet numerical superiority, hence the extensive development of AWACS tactics, AMRAAM fre and forget medium range missiles, combat jamming, etc. to neutralize it and restore the edge.

    When the Israelis used these tactics to go a ridiculous 87-0 against Syria in air combat over the Beka'a Valley, the Americans got their confirmation that hey, this stuff really works! See:

    http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/airchronicles/apj/apj89/hurley.html

    This may explain their continued affinity for such tactics. I'll correct the thesis that they only fight with superiority - not true. The do, however, prefer to use their superior picture of battle to either pick off targets before heading in or concentrate attentions to create local superiority even if general superiority isn't there.

    Hey, wouldn't everybody? That's how a lot of air kills historically happen anyway.

    What's getting interesting is the steady improvement in medium range missiles like the Russian R-77/AA-12, AMRAAM, forthcoming MBDA Meteor, etc. They are developing excellent seeker heads and speed/ maneuverability that is narrowing the escape zone. We've already seen this development at short range, via the excellent Python 4 and amazing Python 5, plus very fine high-off boresight missiles like ASRAAM, AIM-9X Sidewinder, AA-11 Adder, etc.

    Put this together, and the ability to kill enemy aircraft is rising sharply. Worse, Moore's Law is shrinking the electronics needed for beyond visual range capabilities. You no longer need to drive big aircraft like the F-4 Phantom, F-15 Eagle, etc. to get that ability. And as India's MiG-21 Bisons have shown, cheap smaller aircraft + excellent avionics and missiles = very dangerous.

    It's as if those pesky F-5s have come back and evened the odds again!

    There are 2 emerging responses to these developments:

    [1] Get longer reach. AWACS help. MBDA's Meteor, with its ramjet propulsion and 200km range, helps too, and ensures that Rafales, Gripens, and Eurofighter without stealth can meet AA-12 armed aircraft like the SU-30 in combat and survive. This is the primary European response.

    [2] Get stealth, so you can fire before they know you're there. Get excellent passive sensors, too, so you can see them coming. Hence F-35 Joint Strike Fighter. Oh, and get supercruise, too, so you can zip in above Mach 1, acquire, do a drive-by shooting with AMRAAM and excellent short-range missiles, and be out of range before they know what happened. Supercruise plus thrust-vectoring will also enlarge the escape envelope if targeted by enemy missiles. Now we have the F/A-22 Raptor (Yikes!).

    This can be very intimidating. Look at the record of Iranian F-14s during the Iran-Iraq war - their radar let them see the Iraqis coming long before the Iraqis saw them, and their Phoenix missiles could kill at long range. The Iraqis knew a Tomcat was there only when people started blowing up. When the USA began passing radar data to Iraq's MiGs, the Iraqis would stop flying if they knew an Iranian F-14 was in the area.

    The F/A-22 can do that sort of thing, too.

    The Americans are relying heavily on stealth; the AMRAAM hits what it shoots at, but has a shorter range than the AA-12 and much shorter than the upcoming Meteor. They'll probably want to develop a ramjet AMRAAM to broaden their response, and there is word that MBDA will alter the MEteor to fit inside the F-35's weapon bays.

    Until then, or until the F/A-22 shows up at Cope India, I expect the Indian pilots to contnue to do well in the exchanges. The Americans will enjoy the learning experience, and everyone will be pleased that the 2 air forces are learning to fly (and if need be, fight) together.

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    question about the cope india 2004
    By sreeranga_reddy on Monday, July 03, 2006 (EST)
    hi all greats guns of india who protect mother india from land sea and air i salute them i have read all the comments its nice to see india air force defeated 9 out of 10 times so i really have a doubt in my mind dont scold me dear readers did america really loose so that it can approve latest fighter jet contracts in the us congress as i know that americam government is controlled and funded by military as cia and the military manufacturer and contactors are all having an understanding just like soem things happen in india so what are u r comments

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    what a big surprise
    By mustaine on Thursday, July 13, 2006 (EST)
    what a great record for IAF they reached. Not only have big fund but also they have great human resource. I want to figure out when IAF will take exercise with TNI AU from Indonesia? They also have Russian aircraft SU-30.

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    Just short comment
    By bundle on Wednesday, August 09, 2006 (EST)
    For India, material losses are the huge concern. This is so because most of the material assets used by our armed forces originate abroad and are purchased using scarce foreign exchange. High material losses result not just in a tactical paucity but can result in a long term degradation of the country’s ability to wage war and a serious weakening of its economy.

    This quote from article--is what really relevant to the subject matter. Bulk and attrition still decide the issue for both sides of the conflict in any environment, as well as the Air Defence (that is ground complexes) for a defending side. Technical capability taken out of the overall context of conflict means very little in the game of comparison--depth and operational tempo mean a lot. I would not rate article very high, despite the fact that it is a very interesting material, but the issue of balanced force (with the exception of the above quote) and numbers was virtually ommitted in the article, being reduced to a classic "vanity fair" of abstract technological "prowess" of particular aircraft. Fact is, history (behind the issue in the article) has to be also interpreted very accurately. Sorry for a somewhat abbrasive comment.

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    Exocet
    By bundle on Wednesday, August 09, 2006 (EST)
    The success of Exocets at Falklands could be attributed not so much to a missile (albeit still good missile for its time) itself but to a complex of factors, among which inept British Air Defence of the task group (both as a complex of measures and technologically) should be the most important.

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